Burned Out But Not Broken: Coaching Employees Back to Life

**[00:00:00]** Hello everyone, my name is Arand Presceno and welcome to the web talk show. Today with us is Paul Nun from Paul Nun Training. Welcome Paul. Thanks appreciate it. So Paul, for those listening who don't know you, could you give us a brief intro into who you are and what you do? Yeah, sure. I'd glad to. I live here in the Houston, Texas area. I am a I guess a sales and leadership coach expert. I I train mostly mostly community banks and credit unions. Um but I think what we talk about and what I teach is industry agnostic as I like to say. Um but what I primarily do is I teach leaders, managers how to coach their teams so they can be more successful. And uh I also teach sales skills and anything that has to do with I've got to deal with another person whether it's a customer, an employee, a direct report, even a superior. And uh I've been doing that on my own now for about two and a half years. And it's been a roller coaster of uh of uh clients, no clients, and just traveling all over the country. But it's been a blessing. Um it's a lot of fun. It really is. I give everything I have. It's just it's just a lot of fun. And I love teaching managers. They're hungry for it. Um, a lot of managers were kind of thrown into the fold, not with a whole lot of experience, saying, "Here you go. You're a manager. Good luck." And, you know, you usually don't get a whole lot of uh, feedback on how to do how to actually do that. So, it's been a lot of fun. I I'm glad you talk about that part **[00:02:00]** because it was mentioned in another of our shows in the whole training space that precisely what you just said, people get thrown into these roles many times and there's no real safety net for them and so someone coming in and helping train on that aspect is fantastic. How did you get started with community banks and credit units? Like we well we can talk about niches. Everyone says pick a niche, but like how why that niche? Actually, I get that question almost everywhere I go because I started out as a middle school band director. I taught band in the Houston area for 10 years. And so when people hear that, they're like, how in the world did you move from being a teacher to being, you know, a sales or co sales coach or leadership coach? What happened was um of course you know teachers make exuberant amounts of money. You know we've got three or four homes all over the world. Uh but I supplemented my income being a bank teller here in the Houston area at both a bank and at a credit union. So I did that for several years up until my daughter was born. And uh I just realized that I really loved working with customers or members if depending if you're a bank or a credit union. But I loved that interaction. But I also loved teaching. So really in 2003, a former manager called me up out of the blue and said, "Hey, we really don't have much in the form of training for our new hires." And I knew that because um I didn't have that training when I started at the at in banking. So I got a chance to just build some training from the ground **[00:04:00]** up. And uh gosh, that's been what 20 some odd years. That's just been so much fun. And so that's kind of where I cut my teeth into training was moving from teaching straight into banking and and never looked back. Nice. Now the great thing about this story is that it's not only that you started with that, but that you actually started even lower at the teller level seeing and having that experience where the training was not there. And so you got your hands dirty in the whole process when and then eventually got into the training part which is great because you had the knowledge and and the hard work behind it to know what actually happened at that level instead of being an up down approach. Yeah. I love going into talking with group especially managers and I'll say you know how many of you were never trained as whether it's a teller or even as a manager and it's not a knock to the industry it's just I would say in I I probably say a lot of the listeners that remember a job where they were never trained and they were just thrown in and said good luck even with teaching my first year teaching I was not prepared I would rather I am more comfortable speaking to you, to your viewers, and to a 400 member audience of executives than being in front of 25, 8th and 9th graders. That would strike the fear uh into anyone. And that was much harder. So, I I totally get it. Now, you said something, Armando, just now about kind of lower about the teller. That's I'm going to pick on you just a little bit because when I teach these skills like sales skills **[00:06:00]** or or leadership skills, we always talk about the teller being the entry point and I kind of get on the soap box about the fact that they're actually if you look at an org chart, you should actually flip it because the face of a of a bank, credit union, really any industry, whoever answers that phone, that's the face that you need to work on. So, I tell managers all the time, it's like, you know, you've got the um you've got the employees that see the most customers, you've got the employees that have the most amount to lose because they're got to look for fraud, they got to look for compliance, they got to balance, you know, whatever. But they've got all these pressures, but yet they're the least trained and they're paid the least. And so, one of the things we talk about with leadership training is like you got to pay your people. you know, you want to mo, we always get into that. You want to motivate employees, uh, you gota, you got to pay them and treat them well and give them what they need. So, there you go. Off my soap box. That's an excellent point. I appreciate you bringing it up because you bet there is a disconnect at the end of the day between and like you said, it happens in all levels, in all businesses, in all markets, in all industries. And that's that phase. Nobody knows what the CEO looks like or the VPs. They're over there somewhere. In some cases, yeah, there's people there's spectacular people that are out there expo exposing their brand, building brand as them. But in in many scenarios, the business, you don't really see those people who are making the most **[00:08:00]** and who are getting all the training and and and all the expensive treatment. Whereas like in this case bank tellers if you don't give them the treatment they deserve they are the ones that people are actually interacting with like you just said and and you can see it as a customer go and you you you'll hear these people they might be exhausted. They might be tired. They might even have be having a bad day and you're there and maybe you have a bad day. So then you have a bad experience and so you leave the bank, right? you go somewhere else and and you know nowadays uh you're in San Antonio, right? Okay. So, we know what Bies is here in Texas and I know it's it's spreading but they advertise how much they're paying their employees right there. And when you walk into this glorious say convenience store for those of you who aren't who've never been to a Bies, I'm not I am not going to demean the name of Bies by saying it's a convenience store, gas station. Um it is it is an icon. So, they advertise how much they pay and so we're not competing with people in our industry. these frontline employees are competing with Bies, with McDonald's, with anyone or really working for themselves now after the pandemic. So, you're absolutely right is, you know, we've got the the people that are trained the most have the least amount of time with customers. And I will even tell you this, if there's a problem, the frontline, whoever that is, whatever industry you're in, you're you're the easiest to you can fix the problem so quickly. That's why customer service skills and sales skills, they're one and the same. **[00:10:00]** you can deal with problems at the front line. They don't have to go to a senior leader. And that's why it's so important to train and that's why I love what I do. I train these frontline employees, you know, take care of these customers. So, anyone that's listening, if you if you got to if you're in the front line, take care of those customers. Take care of those customers because your your CEOs, senior leaders, they're not going to have the time. They're they're they're too busy and it just runs more efficiently that way. That was amazing. We were talking about something similar with Keith in another of our shows. It's a It's a funny name show because grease fires are no joke. I think we call it Yeah, I saw that one. I loved it. It's a fun episode, especially because when I reached out to Keith, I was looking at different training businesses and this one was so different and out of the box. For for those listening who haven't listened to that episode, they train people on commercial kitchen ex hood exhaust cleaning. I know. Which is that is really niched down, but it's a big thing. Like they have a campus. And are you serious? That's right. That's right. See, I used to work during in college. I worked in a kitchen. When they talk about grease fires, you're right. The vents and the commercial kitchens, that stuff is nasty. Mhm. That stuff is nasty and it can easily catch fire. They can they can it's it's a and so yeah if you're curious about that listen to that episode very exciting very interesting to know how all that works and one of the things we're touching on is trades so I'm **[00:12:00]** I'm very fond of trades people whether it be a an electrician a plumber painter whoever you want it they do such a good job many times in extreme heat extreme cold they had to train here at least in the stage they had to train a lot and for their skill they have to get certified. They have to pass all these tests to be able to do it. But then they don't have the treatment that a lot of let's say different level jobs have professional whatever you want to call them. And so they don't get the comfort of the office and they don't get a lot of these other comforts and and so they don't have the structure. And so we see a lot of them struggling and a lot of them do extremely well, but some you can see they're good. They're they're humble people. They are genuine. They do great work, but you see them struggling with the business side of things because they never got the business training. Right. Right. And again, these are people who are actually doing the work and working with the customer. And so what you're saying and and the things you do, I think it's so important that people realize this. If you run a company like this where you have trades people working for you who are with you, it's so important to to train them and and not only in the skill. Right. Right. Right. I noticed that we we got a new air conditioner which of course in Texas you got to have one if you're going to not die in the heat during the summers. The guy was so nice. But we talked about that how, you know, these these these electricians or these **[00:14:00]** HVAC folks that come out there, they've also got to know these these sales skills and these training skills because, you know, you can easily work on someone's AC and just by having a conversation, just by asking good questions, you give them the training they need that you're looking at building relationships and maybe extending a warranty and uh, you know, things like that. So I think training is hugely needed. Not and you're right, not just in corporate America or white collar if you will, but anywhere any anytime you're working with a customer or with a public, you got to know how to talk to people. I really like the fact that you worked with band, you know, in high school. How how would you say? It's funny because in another episode we also talked about how one of our guests had an upbringing in theater and and now he coaches and trains in his company presidents and vice presidents and really yeah oligarchs and so it's very interesting. I I find the connection with art and music. Before offline, we were talking about the art that you have behind you and having all these different aspects of not only the work, but having a creative outlet as well can really help. So, in your case, do you think having had that experience with kids and band and music and art, does that help you in any way with what you do and how you interact with people? Absolutely. Absolutely. I remember in college we had to learn how to perform and how to perform under pressure. Um and I remember one of my uh private teachers he it was in the it was it was in it was warm definitely and he said he had all **[00:16:00]** of us put on real thick sweaters like two sweaters and run in place for 45 seconds to get out of breath and then he says okay now play the piece of music that you're about to play on stage. So he had us recreate the nerves and the out of breath of performing in front of someone else. And you know that was in the that was a long time ago and I still remember that because you still get nervous you and anytime you perform anytime you're in front of like even before uh us calling in today I was a little nervous. I was like okay does everything look good? Got my shirt on and all that and um got it ironed and everyone gets nervous still. Everyone does. And um in fact, I was coaching a manager one- on-one with her and she was kind of at more of an introvert and she is about to be on a uh at a conference and she's going to be one of the kind of a roundt speakers very nervous and I one of the things I told her was talk to people that have been on stage before and she said they said the same thing. They still get everyone still gets nervous. So when you get taught how to be nervous and still do it anyway, that was huge. So getting in front of those kids, like I said, was a a large group of banker CEOs is nothing compared to give me 25 or 50 middle schoolers any day. Yeah, I'm I'm good. I can totally relate to that. Yeah. I when I was in college, I was musical director and we would we would have these performances and it would be 1500,600 people in **[00:18:00]** the stage and I it was it was fine. I I enjoyed it a lot. You always get a little bit nervous. Make sure you have the songs ready, you have everything in place like you're just saying even if you're doing it every day for for a few days or weekend or any season, it's there it's their first time seeing it. That's the thing, too. It's like you may be doing this. It's their first time the audience and Yeah. Keep going. And it's it's I think something there's two sides to my point. One is I think it's necessary and beautiful the fact that you get nervous. So if you don't get nervous there's something wrong. Right. Right. Because if you don't get nervous you're not caring enough. Right. Right. If you care enough like you were saying even the shirt if you care enough then you're going to get a little nervous. Even if it's a little bit, but there's something there because it means you care about the audience or whoever's you're talking with enough to get nervous a little bit, right? But having said that, after all that happened and I had graduated and everything, I got called into my high school because they were doing a program where many many ex alumni alumni came in and they were just showing some lessons for for some of the kids. And so, yeah, sure. I'll do like a marketing something to that. But I get there and these high school students, man. Yeah. Like that you you go back, but also you have to be on your feet. They will keep you alive. Yes. You have to be very careful. You have to be mindful of like who's going to start because you know how **[00:20:00]** it was back then. And so yeah, at that point I remember like even going back after doing performances in front of thousands of people it used that was tough just in in your mind, right? It turned out really nice but and I relate. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I always funny when I see like like substitute teachers or people that are just student teaching for the first time. I just feel sorry for them because I know that those kids are going to eat them alive. Yes. Yes. It's tough. But you you learn and Yeah, you do. Absolutely. I So band is it was it because you played an instrument or or where did that come from? Yeah, I started uh band in high school. So um usually in in Texas uh band starts around sixth grade, seventh grade. So I wasn't I was in choir. So, um, I didn't jump into band until my sophomore year and and then I started doing really well in it and then I majored in it in college and went from there. Started and actually another reason why I really enjoyed teaching part of it was I started teaching private music lessons in college and that's where I was like I really love seeing people get that aha moment. And so that's what I strive for. Whether it's a podcast, a webinar, or speaking in front of people, to see people's, you know, eyes light up, go, "Oh, that makes more sense." That's got to be the most gratifying thing. I mean, I got an email from a leader um a few weeks, a couple weeks ago that said, you know, she's having a nervous, she was real nervous having to talk to another senior leader. This person is about to **[00:22:00]** be CFO and I think the other person was a senior leader and she was nervous to talk to him. and she goes through the what I taught her in her class, she felt stronger and more confident in being able to have like a tough conversation. I'm like, man, there's nothing better than knowing you can help people because you see them succeed, it just it just makes your day. So, that's what that that's that's why I just love doing this. That's amazing. That's one of the reasons we have this show to show people the passion behind what they do in their day-to-day because some people see training companies and they just think, "Oh, they're just going to put on some PowerPoint, they have us go through the program or whatever." Because we've all had those experiences where they drop us into a training and it's horrible. But but there's also fantastic training and we had some people on that just just talk about what they do and you're like, "What? You're doing that? That's so different and out of the box and like your example, I love your example about the sweater. That is uh a training for life really, not just for for that part of your experience. The the fact that you you get shown that and now it stays with you all these years later and you might even use it with someone who you know is going to get nervous, right? I do. I do. In fact, um there's a group of leaders I train in Mississippi. Uh we're finishing up two more months and they have to present a topic that they uh they just drew the topic last month and it's either going to be to a uh a legislative **[00:24:00]** board or to their CEO or to their board of directors at their bank and they got to come up with a 3 to five minute presentation. And so they're nervous. They were they literally said, "Can I trade with somebody? I'm going to be sick. They turn into middle school kids. But yeah, they're they're nervous. And so I'm going to bring up that idea of you got to be okay being nervous. In fact, you know, I'm thinking about that sweater. I still have it now. I can't fit into it. It was the same sweater that I met my wife that I was wearing when I went met my wife, my now wife. We met in a on a blind date in college. And I still have it. And of course, that's way too small, but it was the same sweater I wore when our uh when I learned about that that I remember putting on that that it was a kind of a maroon sweater. So, yeah, I actually I still have Can't believe I still have it. I should frame it and do I know, right? The the nervousness exercise and it on your So, everyone asks it's just a talking point. Exactly. Exactly. There is a topic that I saw in your your talks I guess your talk topics that I really liked the title of which is coaching the burned out employee. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Yes. It's one of the areas that doesn't get a whole lot of uh discussion. Um I I do a I I part of my training is I look at different you know coaching through like at a life cycle and it's really based on if you're familiar with u **[00:26:00]** Ken Blanchard wrote a book called u situational leadership or one or two or something like that and it talks about just leading people in different you've got to lead people differently and coach them differently based on where they're at in their career and that's going to change and so we talk about the new employee or that star employee or the employee that's been um you know uh they've just been through training. But then you look at the one thing I wanted to add because I get a lot of requests for this. They're like, "Paul, but what about that employee?" And it's it's the employee that's burned out. The problem with them is that I I put that together because that burned out employee at once was probably a star employee. And the the the the thing that I try to convey to my audiences is you got to be real careful when your best people turn silent because that means they they've shut down. And I remember in fact it was my last year teaching. I shut down. I remember that. I mean I should have been ri I mean I just remember my you know my my caring and all of that started coming down because I just got done. You know I feel like I my voice wasn't heard anymore. or it's time to move on. And so that burned out employee, what I teach is you got to find out the why. What is it that put out that flame? And many times I have found that that flame was put out by a leader that dismissed an idea or maybe that was passed on a promotion or just flat out was not able to grow. they were in that role for **[00:28:00]** 20 years, 30 years. In fact, you look in the education system. It's a little scary that you've got some you've got a lot of really good educators that are burned out and they're burned out. And I have heard many people say, "I'm just writing my time till retirement." That's a dangerous mindset if you're dealing with kids. any or in anything, even in a relationship, if you're just writing it out until it's over with, that's not living. You know, I love the line in Shaw Shank Redemption, one of my favorite movies. He said, "You can either um spend the rest of your life living or dying or something like that." And I'm like, you you know, life's too short. So, when you got that burned out employee, what I teach manager to do is sit down with them and say, "Hey, I noticed that you used to really want to do this. What has changed?" And so I teach managers how to approach that with empathy because it is so necessary. You know, you've got employees that they're still good. They're still they can be they can be helped. And we got to be to you can't just give away an employee. You can't just say, you know what, if you're not going to care about this, just go on your merry way. We don't have that luxury anymore. We don't the job market, the the economy, you can't. It's like that old term, you know, keeper to keeper. Mhm. Mhm. You got an employee that's burned out, you got to find out the why. And what I typically do, the quick solving, um, one technique that I teach managers to use is you take an an employee that's burned out, say, look, I know you **[00:30:00]** still got a lot left in the tank. I know you got this and you have a lot to give. You got a lot of experience. Can you help another person? And that's where I say, you know what, let's take the knowledge that you have and let's let's move with that. All I even ask or I will teach managers to say you know what what changes would you make? I would love it if every manager found an employee that is burned out and say you know Armando if you were in my shoes what would you what would you want me to work on or what can I do to help you? I see a lot of experience in you. Typically they will say no one's ever asked me that before and I get that. I I heard that a lot. No one's ever asked me my thoughts. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. judge. That's amazing. I It's very powerful because many people do not get asked that. No, they they just go through it and then they deal with it on their own, which is the right and they struggle. Yeah, absolutely. And that that's where the coaching comes in is if I can teach managers on how to recognize that and how to teach empathy, how to teach noticing, hey, I see that something's going what's going on? You know, is everything okay? just to be able to stop and look at an employee that may be underperforming or burned out and say, "What do you, you know, what's the purpose behind it?" And, you know, you're not holding anyone less accountable, but you're saying, "Hey, something's off. What's going on? What can we do to help?" When you show that **[00:32:00]** you care like that, sometimes that's all it takes. And your suggestion, I think, is a great one where you take someone who might not be producing as they were and they might not have the energy, but if you throw that spark in, hey, can you help this other person that's struggling with this thing you're so good at, that triggers another pathway in their brain into something that now they can get excited about. and they they might actually we don't know but they might actually get excited about it. You're giving them a shot and now they're doing this other thing and I found something very interesting. I don't know if you've seen this too. Sometimes you might be burnt out here. But as soon as you get a spark going over here your your mind your energy rises again and so you're excited about this but then this also seeps a little bit of that energy into that other part of your life of your business. And so you co just just by consequence grow in general. Yeah. You know, I see that in sports. I'm a big NFL fan, Houston Texans fan here. And I, you know, you notice that with anyone that that they may not be good in this role, but boy, you get them into a new role or you ask them, hey, where else would you like to grow? That's another question you can ask someone who's burned out is or disengaged. You know, what what ideas do you have? Where else would you like to grow? We'd love to see you stay here. We'd love to see you grow. And you know, they may say no, no thanks. Okay, well then you you you move on. But to give them **[00:34:00]** that opportunity to say, let me share my gifts somewhere else. It they may have just been burned out in that position because a lot of a lot of managers used to be frontline employees and they don't want anything to do with it anymore because that part of them is burned out, but that means there's something else over here. And I think it's so important and here's another reason why it's important to deal with and or or to help that disengaged employee or that burned out employee. Um, if you don't, you're going to have to deal with them another way. And the danger is you've got new employees that are watching. And if they see an employee that's burned out, what makes them think they're going to stick around saying, "Wow, if everyone here is burned out because they can't do anything else, then why would I even stick around?" I have heard teachers say, "I'm only going to make $200 or $300 more each year. Why would I even care?" I'm like, whoa, I've heard that before stuff. Yeah. And another thing I recently heard Gary Vaynerchuk say about leadership. Gary Vee, Gary Vee, he's so so good at talking about someone who's out there, right? He owns these huge media businesses and he's still out there every day on all the social platforms and he's just having content everywhere. And one of the things he said, I think it was on the podcast was you have to before this happens, keep all your not best employees, but whoever's producing the most, your best producers, your if you're just a oneman team or two two person team and you have someone that's with you, that person definitely anyone who's really important, you should not only **[00:36:00]** talk to them often, But know what's going on with their life. What's what's happening in their family? What are they excited about in life? What are they excited about in the job? What are their ideas like you were saying to grow the business? Maybe they can give you some really good pointers because might there might they might be the ones interacting with your actual customers and they they're going to know a lot more stuff than you will. And so keeping that conversation line open proactively is going to be so much more valuable down the line because when you get to the point that we were talking about, yes, these these actions are fantastic and they will help these burntout employees, but if you can avoid getting there, it's so yeah, so much more time gained and the potential to grow the whole company culture. That's absolutely right. In fact, when I, you know, we we do that little four quadrant of different people and how you should lead them. When we talk about the star employee, the one that you're like, you think God that that person is there and you never want them to leave. But what we end up do, what managers end up doing is self-sabotage. They end up that best employee gets punished by more work, more responsibilities, and having to do the work of other people that are not. And then you turned a a a a star employee into a burnedout employee. And that's the danger is that you give them, you know, instead of rewarding them with asking them, hey, you know, tell me about your family, what's going on, or what motivates you, what is it that really drives you? Ask your spend more time with your **[00:38:00]** star employees and you have to spend less time with those employees that are not performing because those not employee those performers that are employees that are not performing they're going to either step you know shape up or ship out if you will. But if you've got a star employee and they're not growing and all they're doing is just saying all right well I guess I got to fix the problems of so and so over there. Yeah. The burnout's going to happen big time or more importantly they're going to leave. Yeah. And that's costly. You mentioned that earlier. It's costly in a few different ways which we sometimes don't stop and listen. So you were saying right now very importantly sometimes these managers might self-sabotage and they might say, "Oh, I don't want to I don't want to touch it. Just he's so good. Let's just leave it like that." But then you start to lose touch and then you get to the point where they get to be burnt out. And if that happens, they might leave. And if they leave, one, you're gonna have a very tough time filling that spot just because you need someone and finding someone is just hard in general, right? Two, whatever you get, you're going to have to train and on board, and that's going to take a while. And then that burnt out person who you thought was done their final days is going to get a renewed energy with your competitor. Yeah. And be a star employee over there. And now you have to fight against that, too. So, you know, and here's another aspect of that cost you were talking about. Do you know the cost of replacing an employee? The average that Sherm quotes. **[00:40:00]** What is it? 150% of someone's salary. That's the a industry average. And I think I've read that it's 200% if it's a senior executive. Makes sense. Then you you know another thing too, let's say that that star employee you're talking about, they leave. Guess who you're stuck with all the people that won't leave, right? Because you're dealing with that problem, but the people that are solutionoriented and want to help, they're going to say, "You know what? I'm going elsewhere." That also brings up another point, which is I put on here cost of turnover, but I get a lot of times people say, "Well, Paul, why do you charge so much for training? You know, how come you're charging me x x amount per day?" And I all I do is ask them. It's like how much does it how much does an average manager make and how important is it that that manager is given the tools they need? Because you know you've got a manager. That's why I love management training so much because it it can impact an entire department or an organization. You've got one manager that you give them the tools to coach, to lead, to motivate, you're increasing performance. And my task is to help the CFOs, the people that signed the checks and said, "Are we going to spend this money or not?" to realize that it's more valuable to just keep I mean, think about the impact one manager, let's say you have 10 managers, one of them becomes a star manager, the impact it's going to have on their team and how much revenue that's going to bring in and productivity. So it's amazing the impact that a good leader can have on an organization. It is **[00:42:00]** just, you know, we see it all the time. You think back to your, you know, who was, think about a good manager that you've had back in your past and the impact they've made on your life or teacher you've had in school. It's the numbers matter. Yeah. Oh yeah. Many times we don't stop and think like the 150% or 200%. There are actual stats. You can listeners can look up this information especially now with all the LLMs. You go on perplexity and get it to research what the numbers are. They are impressive. The the amount of additional revenue one employee can bring a company is is impressive in just just as a standard average. And so when you tie that to good managers and have a good performing team, the numbers add up. And so like you were saying, oh the cost of training. Yes, the cost of training, but what is it giving you in return? It's doesn't it's peanuts at the end of the day for what you're doing. Of course, right? I will I will put a caveat to that. It's the cost of poor training. I have said you just said it before. remember you said how how you know sometimes you sit through a training or something like that and it's just like please let it end and if you'll notice actually when I teach I do not use for the most part if it's online on-site training I do not use a PowerPoint I don't want them I don't want them no that's because I want to let's get a flip chart give me a flip chart and a whiteboard dude I am I am down because it gets them interactive so I think the problem with a lot **[00:44:00]** of leadership training the problem that a lot of organizations say no that's too expensive is that they've tried it in the past and it hasn't worked out because it was like, "Wow, we spent all this money and they end up leaving or it just doesn't have the results." And that's the problem is that they do this training think it's going to fix something and it doesn't. That's, you know, talk about behind the scenes of training. Training is not the answer. And I think actually I think Keith said that or one of your podcasts someone said, you know, training is not the end- all beall. It's a part of it. But that's why I teach coaching skills because that manager is going to be with that employee daily. That's where the education, that's where the magic happens is not with a training class. It's does that manager have what they need on a daily basis to support what they were trained on. And I think that's the missing piece. And that's why I think a lot of organizations say, you know what, we don't want any training. It's too expensive. Well, yeah, it's too expensive. It's not worth it if you're not going to do anything with it. It's just like buying a gym membership. It's not. Of course, I'm with my Bluebell ice cream coffee mug, but it's like you gota you got to spend the time. It's it's the daily things. That's an amazing mug. I have to call out that. I've never seen Man, that's awesome. That's my favorite, man. Coffee mug. That's so cool. Actually, I went to a there was a client I went to. It was there in Somerville, Texas or I think it was there, but we're driving through **[00:46:00]** and I saw the Blue Bell. And if you if your listeners have not had Blue Bell ice cream, dude, you got to. But there actually is a gift shop in this Blue Bell crearyy up there here in Texas. And uh yeah, I went that was let's just say it was a required stop. Where is it? Oh, it's in in Brennham. Uh Bluebell Crearyies in Brenham. Okay. And I was driving right through there and it said Blue Bell Crearies and I I pulled over and I went to the gift shop and Yeah. got a mug. It was way too expensive, but man, I'm I'm brand loyal, man. Yeah. Well, it's like Bies. You have to stop. Yeah. Yeah. You just got to you Rahul and and I'm glad you listened to the show. Thank you for that. Uh he he said something that stuck to me and I think we did a social post on that as well that it's not training like you were just saying. People know that they have to stop at a stop sign. That's one of the examples he said. So, if they ran a stop sign and the police officer told them to go get training, that's not the solution. They know they have to stop at the stop sign. We went through training in 16 and driver's ed. We know that. So, that's not always the solution. So, I'm glad you bring it up. It has to be good training where people are actually involved and you're actually doing it. Like you you very well said it at the beginning. You like that aha moment. You as a trainer like to see where that person sees the difference. It's now a different person because now they understand. And so **[00:48:00]** that's what we as trainers have to strive for. Not to just give you content. I mean there's books about everything. And now with all the chat GPTs and perplexities and clots and whatever, you can get all the information you want immediately. But is it presented to you in a way where you're going to get that aha moment? And that's what we as trainers as and everyone as trainers or mentors or coaches have to practice. So that so that if we do sell a training, if we want people to actually like it and give us good reviews about it, then you have to make sure you are thinking about the outcome, how that person is going to grow and not just you selling the course. Yeah. Are you familiar with the Kirkpatrick uh levels of evaluation? No, I'm not. Please. Okay. So there's and this is where I think a lot of trainers miss this is, you know, we call them smile sheets. You get at the end of the day, you're like, "Hey, I want to know how I did. you know, did they like me? Was I funny? Did I help them? And we call them smile sheets because a trainer will read the surveys and say, "Wow, that was awesome." It just feeds your ego, right? But then there's a set, that was level one. Level two is, did they learn? And so that's like a test. So level two evaluation is, can they actually write down what you're supposed to do at a stop sign, right? Level three is, are they actually doing the job? So you can measure, see this is what makes training effective is like level three is did they, you know, are you finding that stop signs, you **[00:50:00]** know, uh, you've got a, you've got a camera on that stop sign, for example, are the number of people running through stop signs going down. Well, now you're changing behavior. Now, you're still not you're still not seeing any results from it from a financial standpoint. It's when you get to what we call a level four, which is business results. Are there less accidents? Are we um are we saving more lives? Are people spending less in tickets? And the same thing with training, with leadership training. You know, that's another another thing. You know, you spend money on this training, but if there's no ROI, why would a leader sign up for it? You know, they're like, "Well, we just spent 20, 30, 40 grand having this guy come in once or twice or three times a year, and we just poured the money away into the into the toilet." But if you can say we actually improved profits that speaks to the organization and we as trainers have to do that. We have to say this is going to save you money but we have to be able to show it. So, like I've got a a bank in the real Grand Valley actually I'm working with and they talked about how they um through some of the sales training this one gentleman said that he closed a I think a 5 million or 500 it was a very large commercial loan and said that they had just by having a better conversation that you know they're they're probably going to bring in five or it's it's a five I'm thinking five million five million in in commercial loans and I told the my stakeholder I'm like dude I'm charging way too less. You know, I'm **[00:52:00]** not charging nearly enough. But it's like you you start having these conversations. That is what trainers need to show. It's like this is the value because we know the but does the stakeholder know the value and that's what we have to do is show we can improve your bottom line because and one question I think a lot of people I I should start asking more is you know how much have you had to spend in um turnover last year? I need to start asking that question now that I'm thinking about it. You know, how much did you spend on hiring new employees last year? How much did you have to spend on training last year? All right. What if we can reduce it by X amount? Would that be valuable? And then you move on from there. But I think we as trainers, we get stuck in the, hey, training is awesome. We think it's valuable, but you don't show the Yeah. But how does it impact our bottom line? Yes. So true. And if we transition into the sales part of it, you you have the same thing going on where even that difference of conversation that you just talked about. It might have been the same conversation but slightly varied and now that brought in 5 million, right? Or whatever amount in revenue. And that's one part of it which we can get into. And the other part of it is just what you just said about turnover but in sales because if you have the conversation properly at the beginning, let's say we go back a little bit and you were having these conversations and people were buying, registering, etc. But they you sort of pressured them into a sale. Yeah. And **[00:54:00]** so then they go away eventually. they just get one of your products, they didn't feel comfortable, they leave. So, you have that churn and so your customer lifetime value is low. I mean, it's whatever it was. It was nice sale, hooray for that employee, but that's basically it. But if you have a very good conversation from the beginning where they are completely on board with what you're they're going to get and how it's going to be delivered, etc., Then they're going to get that product and then they're going to get another product and then they're get another product for their wife and then they're going to say, "Hey friend, this is the bank you have to go to." And then they're going to tell their colleagues, etc. And now your customer lifetime value and affiliate value just grew tremendously just by doing correct selling, right? And if you But see, you you got to you got to come across as someone who wants to help them, not someone who wants to sell them something, you know? And that's the thing too, a lot of like I I look at I look up training companies and I'm like what what is the feeling that I'm getting is am I feeling that pressure or am I feeling like wow this person actually wants to help me and I've got to come across as hey let's fix a solution that problem that you're having. So you got to know the problem that they're going through and then okay not only how can we solve it but how can I be a part of the solution and I want that I want that organization to take the ownership of the solution as well. I'm a part of it but **[00:56:00]** I can't be there every day. So they have to feel like they're I'm someone that they can reach out to at any time and that I'm going to be there to help them solve problems. That's why a lot of times the training I do is not just a one-day training. It's okay, once a month we're going to get on a call once a month or or some often we're going to check in and I'm going to be checking in with these folks and saying, "All right, how's it going so far?" Because if they see it as just like a band-aid on something, then yeah, you're right. It was nice. We had a little bit of lift, but we moved on. No, you got to be you got to be involved. It's like a relationship. You're in you're in, right? You can't just one time work with them. You got to stay, you got to show that, hey, look, I'm going to be with you the whole step of the way. Yeah. Very important. How do you tell someone or show someone or train someone to sell without selling? Oh my god. Yeah. I say uh the in fact I'm coming up with I'm I've got a book that I'm putting together. It's called sword sales. You know, it's like, you know, the the perception. And I don't want to bash every used car salesman, but I will bash a lot of used car salesman that I've I've ever had the inex, you know, unpleasure of dealing with is, you know, you got that image of I'm just trying to, you know, what are you, what's it going to take to get you into a car today? It's that pushiness. And unfortunately in banking, Wells Fargo **[00:58:00]** had a hard time. They got there's a lot of large banks that have these huge sales goals, these sales quotas, and it just puts this pressure on you. And people in banking, their mindset is I just want to take care of customers. And so the way I teach it is first of all, don't focus on the sales. Stop doing that. Because a lot of times they go right into the products or services, and I'm like, you got to shut up. You cannot talk about that. you got to talk about how do I build trust with this person? Okay. So, like with you and I, we both f first talked, you know, we were like, "Hey, we got to get to know each other first." We had a several conversations and and we were like, "Hey, yeah, let's do this. Let's share this information." And but you got to everything starts with trust. And another thing about banking specifically, you know, the one industry that knows everything about you with exception of the IRS. Um, but they know, you know, if if you go to a bank, you're going to give them your your social, your driver's license, your personal information, their credit. You know, why in the world would I give them any of that information if I don't trust them? So if you start out with trust, building rapport and saying, "Hey, look, I want to help you." And then when you do more listening, the customer does more talking. That's how you approach sales is you don't do sales. Nice. That's the best way to sell is not to sell, you know. So listening first. Yeah, that is very important. It applies for sales. It applies for everything else as well. For training, **[01:00:00]** for parenting, parenting, for support, for for everything at the end of the day, the PE, we as humans need to feel understood. Yeah. And then obviously, you can't help me if you don't understand me anyway. Right. And there's I find it funny. I I used to do uh well, people know me because of the computer side, right? And so a lot of people would would call me friends, family or whatever a long time ago about, oh, I have this issue, right, with something technical, technological or whatever you want to call it. And I always ask, so I I just start asking very specific questions. Did you do this? Did you do this other thing? What did you do next? And they most of the time people try to rush ahead. Yes, but it's not working. Like let's just talk about it. And and so we go through what things they actually did and then we figure out, oh, that's the issue. And so just asking or just listening it, it gives you so much more insight instead of trying to assume you know the answer, right? And which you might might know the answer because of intuition or experience, but it's better even in that scenario to have the patience and actually take the time to listen so that you can actually provide a good solution that will help them. Yeah. I think in it specifically, I think it's funny you said that is, hey, I've got this problem in my computer. Is a lot of times you'll you'll have someone in IT say, well, did you um did you try this or that? You got to be careful with that because it sounds like you're mansplaining a little bit. No. And so, you know, **[01:02:00]** did you try to reboot? And like, oh man, you want you want to make someone upset, sit there and go, dude, don't do that. What I in fact, if I could teach it anything, it would start off with the basic sales question, which is tell me what's going on or what have you tried? Any anyone that has that is in the business of solving a problem, start with that with with The same thing with sales. Don't go into a solution because you don't know what it is. Start with what have you tried. And then like in that case, you've got someone calling you saying, "Hey, my computer's not working." Well, what have you tried? And then based on the information, you can say, "Well, here's the solution." Mhm. And you never had to ask anything. You just sit there and said, "Tell me what's going on. You know, what have you tried?" Then it actually makes you spend less time because you don't have to hunt and peck anymore. you can say based on what you told me, let's try this. That's a great way to frame it. So, anyone who's doing any sort of support work, listen to Paul's example here, that suggestion of just asking what's going on or what have you tried specifically. I think that's a great way to handle it because it has happened to all of us where we call in and we get the call center, right? and you you definitely know it's not ABC, BB, C or D by this point with your internet or whatever, but you call in and they're always going to do the f the questioning and you're like, I know we tried all that, right? Exactly. As a customer, you get frustrated, **[01:04:00]** but maybe like you're saying that that way of asking the question, what have you tried? Then okay, yeah, so I did this, this, this, this, this, and then they can proceed to to do the triage. Yeah, exactly. And see, and that's the thing that irritates me is that, you know, we if you come across as trying to solve a problem too quickly, you come across as not listening and not caring. And a lot of especially if you got customers or you got people that are upset with upset about something. Well, if you're going to come across as trying to not listen to them, that's just going to escalate things. And another thing, uh, you got to come across as one thing I teach in my classes are, you know, it's you and me. It's first of all, it's never about what it's about if they're yelling at you. So anyone if you got if you're in a business where you got someone yelling at you, please understand a lot of times it's not you. It may be, but it may not be. So you got to just, you know, sometimes people just need to vet. But also, it's never about what it's about is something I always say. And also come across it as look, it's you and me versus that problem, not me versus you. You know, let's work together. And that's another thing I teach is let's see what we can do is a valuable statement to say let me see what I can do to help you instead of well we can't do that because it's our policy man I tell people that's the P word do not say policy anyone anyone in any industry it's our policy that we do da **[01:06:00]** da I'm like nope that's that's your that's your new employees go-to checkown is uh oh it's our policy I don't have I can't do anything about it that's my pet peeve of customer service is gh yes you can let me see what I can do or let me see what we can do to help you is is gold you might not be able to do anything you know Armando I'm so sorry you're having that hey tell me what have you tried okay let's see what we can do to help you I mean what conflict is there nothing that is fantastic advice Paul I I was going to ask you can you give some advice as we're wrapping up but that is solid gold advice and the way you framed it. Listeners, just rewind 15 seconds to hear that because it is so different as a customer or as a someone who's receiving feedback, whatever. Just having it framed like that, you feel like, oh, cool. They they care about me. Let's let's continue the conversation. There's no conflict, right? So, that is amazing amazing advice. I think people in general, it's like we put up barriers that don't need to be there. You know, it's like sometimes we're starting a fight just to start a like why why are you making why are you trying to make something worse when you can just say look I get it that sucks you know empathize my go oh do you know the book um gosh it's Chris Voss um never split the difference the difference of course dude I' I've got a copy of it right here man I anyone if you have not read it you need to read it he he need to read it **[01:08:00]** has this he mentions this thing called tactical empathy And it's gold, man. It's like, you know, that's you're frustrated. All you do is just say what they're dealing. It's like you're not agreeing with them. So whether it's service, sales, leadership, marriage, kids, date night, whatever it is, taxes, man, I know that's got to be rough. Let's see what we can do to help you. I mean, doesn't hurt. Yeah. And man, Paul, that's You even put in a book recommendation at the end. That is amazing. So everyone, if you haven't read Never Split the Difference by Chris Vos, great great book. You could listen to the audio book as well. Paul, it has been an absolute pleasure talking with you. Oh man, you too. I've learned a lot. If we can have another conversation sometime about other topics that we were talking about offline, be happy to. And if people want to find you and of course your upcoming book, yeah, where can they reach you? Call me uh well uh go to my website paulnunraining.com. Nothing fancy, nothing uh brilliantly thought up. It's it's what uh was available. So paulnuttraining.com. Uh I'll give you my 281-923106. Blow up my phone, but if you're a scammer, I'm going to put you on the report as junk, but definitely if you want to talk and uh learn more, I'm glad to help. Awesome, Paul. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'll put the link there on the show notes find you and on LinkedIn as well and hope to talk again soon. Thanks everyone. Yeah, me too. Thank you to everyone and uh keep Arando appreciate what you're doing for your audience. Um I love I' I've started catching up on a lot of **[01:10:00]** your webinar uh on your podcast so keep up