Building Profitable Automations: Practical Advice from Stephen Pope

**[00:00:00]** Hello everyone, my name is Armando Peso and welcome to the web talk show. Today we're joined by none other than Stephen P both the master of all workflow automation. Welcome Stephen. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate the the nice intro as well. >> No, it's an honor to have you. And if anyone's listening to this, you probably if you've ever seen anything like workflow AI related on YouTube, you've probably seen Stephen's face around because he pops up a lot in this context and just shares so much valuable down to earthth which I think is a big differentiator with a lot of other people in the space. down to earth content that helps us all understand like what workflows are, how automation works, when you really want to do it. It's not a trendy thing. It's more of like a real life thing. So, I think we're going to have a fun conversation about what goes on in this space. And again, it's an honor to have you, Stephen. >> Yeah. No, and I appreciate that. Yeah. I do. Um I I guess I don't know that I tried to make it down to earth, although I think that's definitely like something that people have told me and like when I kind of look from the outside in it, it makes sense. And uh so now I I do try to like to try to make things as practical as possible because you're right like in this space there's a lot of trendy stuff going around, a lot of people just building building things for the sake of it. And what's also kind of weird too is that I do sometimes build things for the sake of it too, right? [clears throat] >> So **[00:02:00]** it's not like it's not like that's there's never a place for that, but definitely like when people are posting all this stuff like a lot of that context isn't there and like you you definitely need some like some real meat on the bone to make some of this stuff really work. >> Yeah. and and also I guess put it in the terms of what someone actually needs. And I've seen you do that a lot where it's like yes this is this automation but let's think about what the pain behind this person's business is and see how we can make something that actually helps them instead of a flashy 1100 node and a 10 automation. >> Yeah. And there's there's usually like in what I have found a lot of the time and with uh technology my whole life is that often times the the thing that was the most valuable to a customer was the most simple thing. >> It was the [clears throat] most intuitive thing. It was just somebody saw something that the business was struggling with and the solution wasn't even actually that complicated. And then I've spent, you know, on the on the on the other side of that, I've we've spent on myself or with clients, you know, spent tons of money trying to build these things and then they were just not used at all, which is pretty tragic if you think about it. >> Yeah. And I think what I've seen recently with all the AI stuff coming along is that we can get a faster life cycle check right than before where it might take a long time for for a whole big development and and spend a lot of time and then have it not be **[00:04:00]** used and that's really tragic because it was just thousands and thousands of dollars and manh hours spent >> months. Yeah. and months and now I feel we can iterate much faster and be like hit the problem. I really like the post you did recently where you're like don't focus on the simple things like don't build the whole thing and then get to the part that might be broken. Focus on the thing that's broken first >> like the deal breakers. >> Yeah, the deal breakers. If that works, build everything else because Yeah, I think now you can sort of iterate fast, get to that, and then see if it's going to be a make or break kind of thing, right? >> Yeah. It it takes some um it takes some some leadership to do that. >> Mhm. >> Um and especially just because like a lot of times I don't know I guess there's different types of businesses. There's businesses that are just interested in this stuff. >> So those are kind of like the early adopters. They're just they see everything that's going on. They don't necessarily want to build it themselves, but they would love to work with somebody that could help them brainstorm and build stuff. >> Yeah. >> And uh and that's kind of like an experimentation kind of mentality. And then there's like things that are actually the business is struggling with and then those are kind of like things that are much more straightforward, right? Because like sometimes business owners will have you build stuff that you probably shouldn't even build for them. So, and what's your idea on that? So, if if let's say someone's has an automation agency or whatever, they just just get a client. They're like, **[00:06:00]** "Yeah, I got a client." And then the client just asks them for something that they know in their gut. just makes no sense, could be simplified a whole bunch. What would you say in that sense to someone who's s sort of starting out? >> I mean, that's all just kind of comes down to the, you know, having the uh the wherewithal or the awareness to just kind of be the person that's able to say, "Hey, let's take a step back for a second and just let's just analyze, you know, what is the reason why we're doing this?" You know, like is it just to experiment? you know, like if if that's your goal, like you you want to be able to experiment and iterate and work with me on those kind of things and and maybe we build some stuff that we don't use just so that you you understand better >> and then we can kind of work to develop something. That's that's a very >> that's much more defined and at least people know what's happening. >> Um and and that works for businesses that are fairly large that have a lot of money to burn on that kind of stuff and that the person's savvy enough. But if it's not the case, if it's like if it's like a a client that maybe isn't that much bigger and like maybe this is their entire budget maybe for like six months, then you got to you have to be the professional in the room that's able to say, "Hey, let's just hold on a second. like before we build this, let's take a look at, you know, all the things you've got going on and which ones are the the biggest pain in **[00:08:00]** your in your uh your business right now and like maybe we solve that first >> and like get you know a very immediate return on the money cuz like automations it it's like it all comes down to saving money or scaling being able to scale with the same resources right I mean there's nothing more to it than that. So, you don't want to like, you know, make it bigger than that or try to like make it more interesting than that. You always want to be able to tie things back to, hey, you're spending like 10 hours a week on this. This could probably be automated. That's going to be an instant return for you. Let's maybe we we tackle that first. You know, get people oriented to thinking that way. >> Yeah, that makes sense. And how do you think someone can again if if maybe they're starting out, maybe they come from technology but not necessarily automation. And I I think many might be wary of of slowing down or cooling off the negotiation with the client, especially if they're starting out and they're like, >> well, I don't want to >> how do I position myself as an expert enough? because they know like maybe they are the expert already but how do I position myself as an expert enough at the early stages so that I can confidently tell the client hey maybe we should start with like you were saying maybe a smaller MVP has a quick return we can see what's going on etc instead of this pie in the sky kind of deal. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I I think most pe like I think if you do it within reason, but most people like to talk about **[00:10:00]** themselves. So, like you don't it doesn't it doesn't have to be this like um this thing where the you you stop the train and like you readjust everything. But I mean just just starting out with the conversation with just like hey I like I know you've got like a particular idea in mind that could be that could actually be a pretty good first project. Before we do that, what if we take just a second and just evaluate the different things that are going on [clears throat] >> and get them thinking about their own business? Most people if you get them like I like to just imagine solutions but if you were to sit me down and and I I would appreciate this from somebody if they were to sit me down and say hey Steve okay but what if like what let's actually look at what's going on dayto day and what if I was able to get you five hours a day back to your business or to you know it's like you know you start to see people's light light bulbs going on it's like oh that would actually be pretty cool maybe that is a better first so I think if if you as long as you do it in a professional way that it doesn't become because like you can also go overboard, right? Like you can just keep asking questions and just lose the person. But if you spend 5 to 10 minutes just kind of like uncovering things, not everybody, but the vast majority of people will appreciate that. >> Yeah, that makes sense. And it comes back to like common human sense, right? Yeah, it is all that like >> and if you don't want to do that, **[00:12:00]** it should start like you want to start to develop like warning flags because there are some people that are >> there are some people that are just so interested in this stuff they just want to use you as like a you know like you're the puppet and they're just controlling you and telling you to build this this this and this and and those people tend to not even want to pay very much you know so like >> you know like the serious business owners they want to solve real problems and they're willing to pay for them. >> Yes. Yeah. And I've seen that shift where, like you said, there's some customers that just they're just sort of there and then there's others who really have big pain points and that they've seen your content before or they've something and then they're like, just I know you're the expert. Just tell me what to do. And then you start an introspection session like you were saying and and get clarity, right? >> Yeah. Unless you've unless you've worked with enough clients where you've kind of built some pre-made solutions that >> can fit some pre-made molds like you know the content engine database is something that's done that where >> you know I've I've solved that problem enough times in enough different variations that I was able to kind of you know I I can say that I can say hey this one particular thing will solve a painoint you know just like that >> those that's kind of like the two ends of the spectrum it's like totally custom that's look at your business, make sure we come up with good solutions or you know I've got this pre-made solution if you are in this **[00:14:00]** specific state right now you know what I mean >> right and what would your approach be let's say you're starting out you don't have anything and you're like I can I think this is going to be a fantastic product I can make it or should I start fixing some issues for some clients that sort of figure out that there's a need for that many times and then build something about it. What's what's like the chicken egg? >> I think there it does depend a little bit on like how much money you have in the bank. >> You know, >> if you have a lot of money and you have flexibility, I think trying to go straight for the product could work. >> You know, [clears throat] you got to give yourself time to especially if you're learning automations as well. >> Yeah. Um, but you know, if you're learning automations and you you've never built anything before, you know, it's like it's a little hard to just do that. >> Mhm. >> without some experience. So, it's not like you have to build some big agency or something, but I think people, you know, having a couple of clients where they're giving you problems and you're facing real issues, it really helps your experience a lot because it's it's the experience that's going to make your product better, right? M >> like I can make a better content engine than a lot of people because I have way more nuanced experience, right? Like you can like lots of people online are building the the content automations that do this this and this and some of them are cool but like there's not a lot of nuance and depth to those automations and I don't see **[00:16:00]** a whole lot of people actually using them themselves. >> Yes. you know, so like >> I think for a lot of people getting a client, having somebody pay you, learning the problems, continuing to try to find people that you like to work with in a space, >> like if you like content, then work with people that produce a lot of content so you can get good at that. If um >> if there's a company that has a lot of leads and you want to help them build their CRM and that whole lead management thing, then you know, like find a find somebody where you can keep solving the same stuff. Ideally, these are all ideals, right? >> Can't always do that. But >> cuz the more the more like similar the automations are, the more depth you'll have. >> Yeah. >> There's there's a lot to learn, you know? Like I can like I've been in technology a long time, but I can build better stuff in content because I don't do a lot of lead generation stuff like where I'm, you know, >> messaging people on LinkedIn and stuff. Like, could I sit down and learn it? Yes. But are there people that could build better systems than me? Probably. Yeah. Because they just they've built 30 different LinkedIn scrapers. You know what I mean? >> Mhm. That makes a lot of sense. Even if you have the technical prowess to do it. >> Yeah. Even if you have the technical ability, like there's still going to be better like the the uh there's the technical prowess and then there's the business sense like the like how does it actually get implemented? Technical people usually have a like and this is where people get **[00:18:00]** stuck is technical people usually have like a uh a mental model of what it should look like if they were to build it. >> Mhm. >> But [clears throat] the reality of what they actually build is going to be different from that. And usually it doesn't work as well as you think. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Like there's it's like you had this vision it was going to do all these things but then it like the automation breaks all the time. It's like you know what I mean? like it just doesn't deliver. >> Yeah. >> Especially with edge cases, right? So, what you're saying makes a lot of sense cuz it's like if you build it Yeah. Yeah. Sure you build it, but if you're not the real user, you won't put in those edge cases because they won't just won't come up. And so, >> yeah. And on that note like those edge cases like so what ends up happening to automations is like you if you build something and then all these edge cases come up. Usually what ends up happening is the automation becomes like totally destroyed by all these edge cases because the solution wasn't like it wasn't creative enough. >> It did like edge cases can usually be solved like if you're having to solve for a 100 edge cases your automation is probably not built very well. >> Yeah. Like if you knew all those edge cases, there's usually like a simpler solution that would have allowed for those edge cases in like a more elegant way. >> But if you don't know, you don't know, right? And so then you end up building those things after. And that's what starts to make an automation kind of brittle. >> **[00:20:00]** Yeah. And you don't want >> I mean, you have to build them. You have to you have to put the edge cases in there, but that's when you realize you're not as good as you thought, right? You're like, "Oh, well, this isn't you know." >> Yeah. Yeah. And then it becomes a balance of like there's there's those of us who are like tweaking things and you're like, "Okay, let me make it better and you make it simpler and then you do another iteration and that's perfect as long as you don't go full swing the other way and like just want to make it better all the time and never finish, right?" >> Yeah. I mean, and that's going to be it. I mean, that I have to battle that all the time. I mean, I I enjoy building these solutions. Um >> Yeah. that like you just end up starting to to learn, you know, basic business stuff like actually like this is one of the things I want to talk about in in my community more. It's just like basic um fundamentals of business and you know like in the end like the the economics of what you're building have to make sense for for you and you have to make enough money and it has to make economic sense for the person you're building it for. And usually if the automation starts to get unwieldy, it's hard to manage, all these edge cases, it's breaking down, it's not going to deliver the the final financial result to the company. It's it's just going to be a pain in the a pain in the company's side. So yeah, you got you got to learn like when do you stop building, when do you refactor **[00:22:00]** things, how do you make sure things don't get too complicated. a lot a lot of like uh I guess that comes with experience building as many things as possible you run into all these little things. >> Yeah. What's I know part of your background but for the audience what's your background? I know technology obviously you mentioned it earlier but but so people get get sort of a feel. >> Yeah. So my background like I've been in computers my whole life. So I grew up and uh in the8s mostly. So I was born in 1979 and my dad he bought a computer for me and my brother. So, we had one very young and then I had a modem and so some people on the call might be aware of like before the internet there was this thing called uh bulletin board services like your you could get on on on you could call individual computers and they would connect and you could chat you could send messages and those messages would actually network into other nodes and you could download files and I I was on there all the time. I I was lucky that my neighbor was also a programmer, >> which is some I think back in those days it was kind of random your success because you needed like there was no there's no place to look this stuff up. [clears throat] >> So I was a programmer. I was building stuff myself. I had this neighbor. We would always just hang out, build stuff. And then um I was always trying to sell stuff to people like I would build these inventions. And then I got a degree in computer science, built out like a a technology agency for building like **[00:24:00]** apps and stuff for like startups and mid-size small and mid-size businesses. Kind of what a lot of people are doing now for, you know, AI agencies. It's the same same concept, right? Just building custom solutions for people. >> And I built that out for like over 12 years. And then I sold that and then I got back into uh starting another business. And that's when I got into all the content stuff because I was like, I got to figure out how content works cuz my my last business was great. We were doing a couple million dollars a year, but it took a long time to build that business. And so I needed to figure out how do I generate leads basically. >> So I got into content and then I started automating everything, building software solutions, and that that kind of like that's kind of the path. But yeah, I've just been a a tech guy my whole life. I know I know how it all works pretty intimately, you know. And that's a plus I think also for for the things that you put out because people sometimes stay too superficial. And I think even if they just sep those concepts that you know from architecture and from architecting systems and how computers work and cues and things like that, you're sort of your mind works in a different way. And so the way you explain it might make a little more logical sense than just like here are a few notes, just connect them and magically it works, right? >> Yeah. I guess I was I wish I was a little more aware of like how to do that >> because I think it comes out um but not not always intentionally. And **[00:26:00]** I think, >> you know what I mean? Like I feel like if I could do that more intentionally more often, it would be a good thing. But >> yeah. >> Yeah. You know what? Like I I think I sometimes I think back I was like what what is it that really makes me that much different? I think um number one like when you solve a lot of problems you're good at debugging. [clears throat] >> So um you know I remember as a kid no problem would ever stop me no matter what it was like if whether I had to get to the fifth page of Google or whatever to like you know sometimes it wasn't on the second or third page that answer was like a little bit deeper. Mhm. >> And so being able to debug like anything, just being in any situation where it's like no matter where I'm at, I can debug this. And then also just knowing that the solution has to be simple. >> Mhm. >> Like you can have complex automations, but the core of what you're building should have a simplicity to it. And those are like kind of like more like guiding principles >> that I use. Like if it starts to just look too complex, there's a part of my brain that's like, "This isn't going to be there's a there's something better. There's something better like to do here." >> Yeah. I think we need to teach the LLMs that principle. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. We have to I think everyone should have like a sub agent that's like the kiss agent to keep it simple because they just >> It's funny like even like with this uh and I'm going to have **[00:28:00]** this in my next video just talking about how even keeping your agent super simple is important. Like having more simple agents is better than trying to have one that does a lot of stuff. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. That that makes a lot of sense. And for those who are not yet listening to like to a lot of this stuff like you can have an agent and I'll let Stephen explain a little more but you can have these agents that basically do everything or you can have one that sort of orchestrates and sends to specialists, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, you can basically just like based off of where you are in the workflow, like different agents can do different things cuz you know like you start to give this agent too many tools, too many directions, too many rules, it just starts making mistakes and doing weird stuff. So I I have found that giving it one or two tools. >> Mhm. >> Giving it more examples versus rules >> and giving its abilities just like a few different things and then it does it really well like consistently. Because if you think about an automation, if it fails 5% of the time, you're going to you're not going to like your automation, >> you know, like automations are meant to pretty much run and work forever. >> Yeah. >> Right. If it doesn't, then it's like annoying. Like I mean it's really annoying when you you go to check your email and you're like some email agent was supposed to run and it didn't and now you're like debugging like you were supposed to be like doing something that day not debugging your your email workflow. >> Yes. Yes. And then if it's not yours **[00:30:00]** even worse because it's like then that person has to call whoever built it or whoever supports it and then that person has to get back and has to check it and so there's there's all these downstream effects. So >> yeah. Yeah. It's It's so funny like the reality of like what automations are supposed to do. It's like super boring. >> You know? >> Yeah. >> And it's just like it's like the the space has been ignited by just like all the opportunity. And so that makes that makes like it makes people glorify these automations. But in all reality, it's like there it should they should be dead boring and simple and just work. >> Yeah. I have a few that I built for a client a while back that are just like Stripe payment goes to check the spreadsheet goes to check [clears throat] this other spreadsheet goes to check this other spreadsheet finds everything puts it into Caspio for for some reason and then from there like and it's just that it's just a very boring thing but it does it and so it saves them so much time every day and keeps the data current even in these sort of legacy systems that they might have had and they didn't need to rebuild the whole thing. The systems work. It's fine. Everyone's fine. It's just it was very boring and repetitive. Took a lot of time. And that one just runs. And every so often you'll get like a little error email. It's just like it didn't run. But five minutes later it ran. It was just like a time off. >> Right. Fine. Right. And so >> yeah, but those are great. >> Yeah. And but the the the the thing is **[00:32:00]** is the reason why it's hard to find good jobs like that where you build something that just works like that is because you have to go talk to people. You have to >> you got to get out there. You got to talk to people. >> All that stuff is not >> that's not like uh as much fun for people. >> I mean, I don't really like to do it either to be honest with you, but um like if you don't have conversations with people, you don't learn real problems. >> Mhm. >> You don't learn where all the boring profitable solutions are. you >> you can just kind of you can sit in this space where you're like like I I see it all the time. People come into the my community and they're just like so confused with all the information. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Like oh somebody just said I shouldn't be using NAN anymore. I should be using this or that. And it's like >> none of that really matters. I mean it it like of course it does. Of course it at at the right time it matters. not like, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. I actually was going to ask you that like does the tool matter and >> Yeah. said it sort of does but but it's not like >> just because someone said this just go all in on this other tool if your tool already does all of that. >> It's all it's all context. [clears throat] >> But yeah, I mean of course the tools matter. I mean, I've made a living off scanning the marketplace for cool tools >> and combining them in unique ways. That's kind of like, you know, that's **[00:34:00]** a an interesting way to build products. It's like >> you take tools and you kind of put them together in a unique way that does something new and unique, right? [clears throat] >> Um, but if you have no clients, you know, like whether you use make or animate, it's like not going to matter. both of those tools, you know, depending on the job will be fine. >> Mhm. And sometimes I'm even a mixture, right? >> Oh, yeah. Sometime Yeah. I mean, I still have Zapier, make and N all running >> just because there's some legacy Zap that is not on the other platforms. So, I have all three actually running. >> Wish I didn't have to, but I do. That's a year. And sometimes like this weird very niche software only did SAPs. They never did they never open their API. They never Exactly. >> did something with an A10 or whatever or they haven't yet. And so yeah, I mean sometimes you have to >> Yep. And you mentioned something really important which is content and and leads because a lot of people either because they want to get into this space or any other space for that matter um don't do content like most most of people >> don't >> don't do content like not at all. And when they hear like, "Yeah, you have to do content." They're like, "Oh, okay." And so they post pictures or something, but they don't really understand the content because maybe they're not consuming as or they haven't thought about how they're consuming content because they're probably consuming content. >> Yeah. Exactly. Once you sort of understand the platform, then it makes sense to go the other way and start creating content of something that actually **[00:36:00]** helps people in your potential market. >> I think so. Like that's kind of like my preferred method, you know, like >> I'll tell you like learning how to create content, I mean, has changed my whole life. Mhm. >> Um, you go from like what I feel like is kind of begging for conversations. >> Mhm. >> And I don't mean to put that context to it, but that's what it feels like for me personally when I go do it outbound. >> And I just hate it. >> Um, and so like for me that and then you know with so with content it's like you build an audience. It's like and and you're building something that people are looking for. Mhm. >> So, [clears throat] like nobody goes to their inbox, their email box to get a cold email. Like I'm not saying that people don't click on them and buy from it, but I I think that's it. It's it's definitely usually looking for like it's kind of like preying on people being in this exact moment and >> yeah, >> you're you're you're getting good at like avoiding spam filters and not pissing people off and like you know what I mean? and and as opposed to getting good at communicating and publishing stuff that people are already looking for. And what and in my view is is going to be is only going to get more and more intense like over time. Like we're going to we're going to I think content is going to become more and more important especially as the as the ease of technology gets easier and easier. Like the thing that's going to be left is like your ability to articulate your point of view and get a hold **[00:38:00]** of people and you know and uh grab their attention, build an audience, build a community. >> That makes a lot of sense. When I started with all the Facebook ads many years ago, I would they did a lot of courses and trainings for companies about Facebook ads. And the way I really got good at it was by creating a course. So by teaching other people to do it, I became really good at it because I had >> You refine that. You refine all that knowledge. Yeah. >> And then and then that happened where people would >> see the content and then be like, "Oh, this person is the expert. Maybe I should work with them." Like you were saying, so the tables turn and you're not chasing. It's more like and but I myself like even after that when we switched over to more software again it was like so but what what content do we do like what type of content makes sense and and all that and again just just going back and seeing it's hard to to like do the introspection and figure out what your content should be about. And so nowadays when I'm talking to someone about this, it's more like well find something you really enjoy doing that you're good at and and if if you can find because there's probably a few things and if one of them has value or potential value to businesses or people then just start talking about it and as you talk about it maybe someone will ask a question and then that question will lead you down a hole of like >> yeah oh okay this and this and this and then you start branching out and seeing, oh, now I can **[00:40:00]** create content about this. And questions are a great way to sort of get started. >> Yeah. >> Nowadays. Yeah. >> I mean, that that's kind of like I mean, there's kind of two ways to get started. There's where obviously you could go hire like if if if there's somebody truly gifted at like setting all this up for you. And there probably are some legitimate people, but you you better be careful because there's a lot of people that will help you set it up, but they have no business >> doing that. They have no experience of being successful that with that. Um, obviously if you can pay for quality work that will accelerate your ability to get started. Um, however, that's probably pretty expensive and you know like they like in order to reap the benefits of that you're going to have to be willing to produce at a good steady clip and like move quickly. Otherwise, you kind of have to go the other approach where you just kind of start to figure it out. you produce some stuff >> like the um I think the thing that you know that holds people up is obviously the the the typical stuff right like you're you don't like the way you look you don't like the way you sound kind of the more insecurity things you don't know how to write a script you don't know how to do those kind of like more I would I would just say fundamental things it's pretty easy to get coaching on that stuff >> one way or the other >> so if that is you just identify that and fix it. Um, and then beyond that, I think that where people get hung up next is just like **[00:42:00]** you got to create good stuff. [clears throat] >> Mhm. >> Like usually like you got to synthesize something. >> So like you have to take something that's really like that you you have to learn something and synthesize it and deliver it so that somebody else doesn't have to synthesize it. >> Right. >> Yes. >> And and that what what's interesting is that like it's hard to just like do that from the past. Sometimes I feel like you have to be kind of like inventing new stuff, inventing new theories and like refining your your thought process and then kind of just documenting that. >> And I think it just ends up taking people way more time than they thought. >> Like everyone's trying to fit it into an hour, >> right? So, it's like, "Oh, I'm going to start YouTube and I'm going to slot it in on Monday at three." And then three hits and then it's like they're they're usually like just blown away like, "Oh, I don't even have a script." And they they spend the whole time just like on the first paragraph of the script and that was the the whole block they had for the whole week to create content. >> It's completely blown out of the water. So, you know, I recommend that like I like now I just tell people, hey, hey, you need to like take as many days as it takes to get that first video done so that you can see how the process went for you because I used to like when when people would and and I I'll I'll stop after this, but I used to help people get on camera and I would help them like set up their schedule and all **[00:44:00]** this stuff and it was all imaginary like you're going to pick your ideas on Tuesday and on Wednesday you're going to record >> and very few people would do that. They all wanted the slot and the process and like they wanted it all arranged for them, but like once you did that, it wouldn't work. So, it's just like, hey, I'm not going to build all this infrastructure. Just go make one video manually and see if you can do it. And how long did it take you and then then at least you have a framework to improve from. >> Yeah, for sure. And also the the type of content like we we don't all generate the same type of content, right? I'm I'm not particularly good at creating shorts, but I could do long form content. I mean, I'm comfortable with it whether it's good or not. It's just I'm comfortable doing it or I could do a live stream. And so, I really like your approach, the content engine, all that of like splitting things up into like you have something long, maybe you have a podcast, maybe you have a long video, and then you cut it up in many little pieces, you get the best parts, and then that's what you publish, right? And and you can repurpose it and put in all sorts of platforms. So I think that concept of automating that many people don't know this is possible and then those who do think you just have to use opposcript and that might be end up being expensive if you're doing a lot of content and so that idea of just doing what you're comfortable with whether it be long short live and just trying it out. People don't care **[00:46:00]** about the quality. Nobody's going to watch your first videos anyway. I mean you could have a short viral hit. That's great. People won't care if it's good or not in quality just as long as I mean if you the sound is decent and the the image if it's >> like if it's good stuff people will put up with quite a bit. >> Yeah. >> Uh if it's bad then then any little thing will get them to stop. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I it is true like there's like it's kind of interesting cuz like what I have learned is that there's definitely there's definitely ways that work better and there like there probably are things that you should do. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Now that doesn't mean it's the only thing that you can do but and and it doesn't mean that you have to. >> Mhm. Because because sometimes if you're just getting going, you know, like you just got sometimes people just have to start on their own terms. And it's always possible that your unique twist on things which is totally new and totally different. >> Yeah. >> Ends up being the viral ends up making what ends up making you that that special person. >> And so it's good to explore those things. It it also might not, right? And so that's where it's good to see like, oh well, you know, this just is a better style, you know. >> Yeah, >> this format is is hitting better across the board across for everybody, you know, like so knowing some of those things is important, too. that that's one thing that people just don't ever like look at, you know, like sometimes I'll see people, you **[00:48:00]** know, like I I have faceless video generators in my community. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> And for the life of me, I'm not and and this is I guess this this is ultimately my fault, but there's a lot of people trying to use those that shouldn't. >> Mhm. >> Like if you want to make faceless videos and that's your thing, then that's a great tool. But if you're trying to grow a personal brand, >> that doesn't make any sense, right? like faceless video is not a personal brand. Like that's not going to help you. That's only a distraction. Um >> Yeah. >> So, >> and it it might get a lot of views, but it's not >> I mean depends on what >> it might and >> if you're depends on what you Yeah. >> See, that's the thing is like those systems like people that know how to get a lot of views, it's not the automation that did It's the creativity of this, you know, and but it's hard for people to kind of one day I'll figure out how to like not let people go down the wrong track. [laughter] >> That's tough. >> It's hard though. Like I I really try like I put so many warnings and this and that, but people just kind of have their own path sometimes. >> Yeah. Then [clears throat] sometimes we have to make those mistakes and be like, "Oh, well that didn't make sense." >> Yeah. I mean, like, I think that's what a lot of businesses, right? Like, you know, people it it like it it's so obvious in hindsight, >> like, oh, I you know, like my business failed. It's like, well, what what happened? Well, I never got a customer. **[00:50:00]** Oh, well, it's like, oh, you just never looked for customers. Like >> Mhm. >> the business didn't fail. You just never started a business. You just never You know what I mean? Mhm. >> Like the finances have to make sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of like what Hormosi says for example or or Gary V, they're like just just do a lot of content, do a lot of outreach, do like cuz if like you're saying if you have a business, you don't really have a business until you have plain clients, right? And so >> if you're not get like your sole purpose even before delivery should be figure out how you're getting clients and do outreach the way you're going to do it either cold videos, content, whatever and just focus 99% of your time on that. >> Exactly. >> Until you start and don't worry about scaling like that just comes way down the line. You'll figure it out if you have the money. >> Everyone wants to scale before they even have a customer. [laughter] >> Yeah. Like will that scale? They're like, "Yeah, I mean, >> it's hard though because, you know, like like just creating a lot of content is definitely generic advice." >> Yeah, >> it's good advice, but I think that the reason why they say it that way is because >> like they they're not going to be able to give you your own personalized plan. There's probably a lot of context around that. like anyone applying that advice could probably refine it >> and make it more practical to them. >> Mhm. >> Make it more sane to their schedule or to make it more effective. But, you know, sometimes people just have you just people **[00:52:00]** have to get real have to get used to the fact that they they're going to have to put a ton of work in to get those initial clients. >> Yeah. >> It's probably 10 times more work than you're putting into it right now. Like some somebody wakes up and they they look for 20 minutes. It's like, well, no, you got to look for like four hours >> a day. >> Yeah. >> And that's usually like a sticker shock. It's like, oh my gosh. Like, who wants to do that? Nobody. No. Nobody. There's only like three people on the planet that really want to do that kind of work. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? That's those are like natural-born salesmen. They just that's they do that for whatever reason that they like to do that. >> Most of us don't. So, you have to like adjust to that reality quickly. and just get over it because if you start if you do it four hours a day and you get two or three days in >> that that feeling you won't like it but that feeling will that of that dread will be gone and that's why sometimes I even encourage people to do it on the weekend too so that that dredge doesn't come back on Monday. >> You know what I mean? It's like just do it for 15 minutes on Saturday and Sunday, too, so that when you hit Monday, you're not like, you know, starting over again. >> Yeah, I've never heard that. That makes sense. >> I mean, you don't have to. There's different strategies, you know, like >> Yeah. >> But like getting that momentum on something like that is hard. So, once you get it, maybe **[00:54:00]** don't lose it. >> Yeah. >> Well, momentum is a big one. Like if you start and just keep going, that momentum will push you forward and and in most >> Yeah, momentum is hard. Yeah, >> I I I I agree. I like I I'm a I thought a lot about like how to communicate momentum to people. >> Mhm. >> Because it's that it's like it's this imaginary kind of like energy. Mhm. >> And when you're failing, it's you can use it to get yourself going again. >> But if you fail too many times and you knock if you kind of eat away at that momentum, like it'll you'll kind of like it's it's basically are you spiraling up or are you spiraling down is kind of like what it is because you're going to it's very hard to be just in the middle. You're probably either spiraling up and improving your your day-to-day or you're going the other way. Um, and so you want to get that momentum where like you like even if everything's not going your way, like you feel like you're working on the right things. I think that's kind of the key is like you feel like you're working on the right things even if it's not going your way yet. >> Um, >> that's a good way to put it. And then like if you get and then you know like all of us make that mistake or maybe more some than others but you know you get that momentum and then you can like kind of eat away at it like you're like oh I've I've done well I'm going to take a few days off and you're kind of eating into that momentum >> imag like >> and **[00:56:00]** um it can kind of like >> slow you down. >> Mhm. >> Oh for sure. you like you take advantage of your momentum too early. Like you got to like let it really go for a while. >> Yeah. Yeah. Until it becomes a sort of flywheel, right? Keep the physics analogy. It's like you you just you want it to keep working and if you just stop because you're >> But sometimes we're the ones cranking it still, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is this is a good segway into like why content is so important because it's not only for the now like we're talking about. It's also coming with all the AI stuff and and LLMs and how people are asking things and how everything will become sort of voiceled more than keyword eventually, right? And AR and VR and all that. >> If like faceless videos, yeah, sure. Okay. But if you build your brand, then when someone asks something related to what you do, then the LLMs might pick you to talk about and give the answer. It's like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, Stephen Pope says this." And then they they'll start to quote you and they'll start to give responses based on and you as expert >> and that's so valuable because if you just keep creating content and content content content vlogs, podcast, videos, whatever all platforms, it all starts showing up and more and more the tools are sort of opening up themselves >> and you start seeing in the search results where that data is being pulled in because now it's not just Google's territory. Now it's like oh >> yeah like you should >> even Gemini will >> Yeah. Like Yeah. You should go to all **[00:58:00]** the LLMs and see what they know about you. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's crazy when the first time I I just one of my clients they're in India and they have something in their signature in their emails something like search for best six sigma training or something in your LLM or ask and so and they come up like and if you actually do the search and and I saw that was a a nice trick and I was like let me search for for myself or something and and it came back and actually gave relevant results like yeah he did this automation and and it feels Good. It's like, wow. Okay, so some of the content has paid off. I should do more. >> Yeah, exactly. And and what I found that was kind of interesting, too, about the LLM kind of search engine stuff was that >> it could kind of like tell a story about you, which I thought was neat. >> Oh, yeah. >> Where it's not like where it's not like a SEO, the old school SEO where it was just like here's a link, go read it. No, it would say stuff like, >> oh, it would talk about like how I sold my company and it was just like, oh, that was like that was several stories that I've told across a bunch of different places. >> Yeah. >> And it kind of learned my storyline. >> Mhm. >> And that was actually kind of cool because like your storyline and your arc and like those epiphany moments >> are actually kind of like >> I feel like that's kind of what makes you different really, >> you know? And so like the LLMs are able to see that stuff **[01:00:00]** and kind of tell your story and those epiphany moments that you had. >> Yeah, that's right. And it will even say things in third person that you wouldn't say yourself. Like his clients give him accolades for being super on time, like things like that cuz then they can read the reviews from different places and and it just adds on to the whole story. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That was kind of like a like I I mostly did social media for the views on the platforms themselves, but when I saw that as an added bonus, I was like, "Oh, that's pretty cool." >> Because there's a lot of people that if you go type your name into the these they they don't there's nothing that comes back, you know? >> Yeah. And even like even if they're really popular, they they won't appear because there's no content or whatever. >> And I that's one of the reasons I think it's really important. and then that you actually can get leads from it. That's what's even funnier. Like you're just creating content, talking about something you like that obviously you're giving value to people. Everyone says give value, give report, etc. And so if you're doing this and this has been talked about for ages, that's why newsletters exist, right? And in email broadcast and uh bulletin boards in the past, right? It's create keeping that flow of creation that now is simpler with all the tools that exist give you that potential to then people watching your videos and they might not say anything for months but then all of a sudden >> for sure >> you get one and it's like hey I saw your videos can can do you have like a discovery **[01:02:00]** session or something and then >> you're like whoa and then someone else comes in and then you don't see it but then with that momentum we were talking about you're building all this content for many months maybe even years, suddenly one, two, three, four, five, and suddenly you don't you have more leads that you can handle. But because you were consistent creating the content for so long, >> you have to have that foresight. >> Yeah. >> And I don't I don't think it has to take years. I think it does for some people >> for a lot of different reasons. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> It took me a while for it to work. Um I got a lot of bad advice in the beginning. the way I was using LinkedIn was totally, you know, to totally backwards. >> Um, I didn't really understand verality or any of these different things because I never went viral on LinkedIn. So, I never had the experience. >> But yeah, it can take some time. But I think the like I think if if people are more strategic with it and they they look at what other people are doing and they don't kind of lie to themselves, they can move a lot faster. Mhm. >> But it's but it's being more strategic with what you do and what you say and like >> being more intentional about >> you know like you can't it's not I don't think people should copy other people but you can definitely kind of see what works >> you know. >> Yeah. And then mix it up a little and see if it works for you or try different things. But I think you touched on a very good point earlier which **[01:04:00]** is like an see the analytics, right? So start posting a bunch of stuff and there's some things that are bound to >> you'll see things. Yeah. >> But people like like um like I'll see people that post like 10 YouTube videos or 20, let's say, >> and all of them have no views except for one. >> And they'll be like, I have no data here. And I was like, well, you actually have some information here. like >> it's not as much information as you want. So it's like it looks so small that it's hard to but like there's a reason why this video did well. >> It was the title, it was a thumbnail, it was the content. Something here. >> So you have more data than you think. You just have to like >> the the the other thing with analytics though is that I've noticed this is that people don't want to really review the analytics. They want the analytics, but then like it's like sometimes you just got to look at it like with your own mind. >> Mhm. >> It's like it doesn't it doesn't help just to have it in a spreadsheet. Like you want to look at it and just really get into the weeds with it. Like a lot of times we we can find better insights in when I go to TikTok if I just look at all my videos >> and just look at them. >> Not like in a not through like a spreadsheet. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Just like, okay, well, this one did half a million views. Why is that? Can we just post that one again? >> You know, simple things like that. >> Yeah. >> Whereas like people get lost in **[01:06:00]** all the the analytics and like never make any real decisions, >> right? Cuz because it could have been the thumbnail like you said, like if you just look at the screen and be like, "Oh, these are all tagged and they have the same sort of thing. This one has something different. Let me try that." Just that. And you see it visually in two seconds. >> Yeah, that's that's cool. And and it's all just again coming back to common sense, but but that type of common sense that we sort of forget [laughter] >> for some reason. >> Well, yeah. I mean, like me and my whole team forget sometimes. >> Yeah. >> Just like, no, let's just open up TikTok and just look at it. And we look at it and we all we have like 10 good ideas right away. >> Nice. Nice. And not to discourage people like when we we see these accounts that are huge, right? And they're like half a million views, a million views, two million views. Yeah. Okay, that's great. But if you have 200 views on your videos consistently, and they're all people in your local area, in your market, like moms, for example, in your area, and you do something for moms, that's perfect. Like, keep going and it'll get more, right? >> Well, yeah. I mean, because you don't need a million. >> I mean, 200 views on YouTube is pretty good if you're starting out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, don't get discouraged on numbers. It's more of a, okay, are you seeing consistency? Are some growing more than others? And see which ones and why. >> Yeah. And if it was easy, then like obviously there would be no benefit to **[01:08:00]** it. You know what I mean? Like, it's going to be like I I I like to tell people like it's going to be hard as hell, man. >> Yeah. >> Like it's probably going to be one of the hardest things you ever do. Mhm. >> And that should that should make it seem more realistic. >> Yeah. >> Like I I want people to be like I don't want to like scare people into into like how hard things are going to be, but like knowing that makes it realistic. >> Mhm. >> Of [clears throat] course it's not going to just be like I mean like there's there's moments, right? Like if you got onto TikTok right at the right moment. >> Yeah. >> You there's that kind of luck. But even those people like they were making a million videos a day and like they were, you know, whatever they were doing, dancing or whatever, like they did the work. >> They took advantage of it and they, you know, they rode a wave, so they worked hard nonetheless. >> Yeah, that's that's good advice. >> All right, Stephen. Well, this has been a lot of fun. I know. Awesome, man. short stop coming up, but I do want people to be able to find you because you do provide such good content and then your community also is is one of the best communities in school that that I've seen because of how your team manages everything and how how you work with everyone there. I think it feels like a real community and it's not just like you're there for the content, you're there to pay, just keep paying. I know it's like I want to say just because it's I get back from **[01:10:00]** it and I know I can also always get like a question answered. So I I don't know. I think it's a good like framework model if anyone's building a community to the way you guys are handling. >> I appreciate that. >> Yeah, I always appreciate those comments because I got sometimes I'm pretty hard on myself on the way. [laughter] >> No stuff. So it's like >> I know >> when I get like good comment I'm like oh yeah that's good. That's good to know. So I appreciate that. >> Yeah. I I I'm in a few and like this one really it's just well well done I guess it just feels like that. >> Yeah, it's been >> it feels natural. >> Oh, that's cool. >> If that makes sense. >> I that it's probably because like it's hard for me to be unnatural and when I when I am unnatural like usually like I can't sustain it very long. M >> um I've definitely learned a lot like it it is one of those spaces where um you know it's very trendy. >> Mhm. >> And so I've had to kind of balance like just pumping stuff out to be trendy and like and then also being meaningful because sometimes meaningful doesn't work. >> Yeah. >> Online. [laughter] So, like it's been a it's that's been a challenge, but overall like super glad that you you've enjoyed the community and it's been great having you there and uh and uh appreciate you having me on your show, too. >> Oh, it's my pleasure. And where can people find you, Stephen? Yeah. So, if you go to uh school.com uh you go to and that's with a K uh and then slashno-code-architects and that's the community. **[01:12:00]** >> Perfect. Perfect. >> We got some cool stuff coming. >> Oh yeah, I saw some of the teasers like exciting. There's and there's really much to talk about in the space that's like really indepth and then people don't. And so these sorts of communities I think are great because it sort of separates from all the just hype that's out there on YouTube and Tik Tok etc. It's more like okay so this is the process. This is how you do it step by step and why. So >> yeah and it's like I that's the part that's hard because like like this one of the ones I want to do is like because a lot of what the and I have done as well is a lot of what people do is they build these templates show them on YouTube and then you get the template inside the community. Um, and I've I've done that a lot of that, too. But at the same time, I don't think it's I've kind of learned that a lot of people come just for the template. Some of them can't use it because they're not good enough at automations, so they get disappointed. And then there's other people that um, you know, they don't really learn a lot by using the automations. >> So, I'm going to try to do a better job of not necessarily like giving a ton of templates, but like showing people like how to think through all these complex problems so they could build it themselves. If you want a template, I might as well just sell the template somewhere else. And you know, and then I actually support the template like it's a product >> cuz it's like you can't learn a lot from **[01:14:00]** just a template. >> Yeah. You don't. No, you don't. You don't. I' I've seen that like watching videos where like I don't have a template. I have to watch it. It's just then now I know a lot more stuff. >> Right. >> Cool. Well, thanks a lot, man. Thanks again. And uh we'll we'll talk soon. Next time we got to like you gotta hit up your or you got to turn your organ on. I'll hit the piano and we'll >> Awesome. Yeah, we should definitely. >> All right, [laughter] cool, bro. >> All right, thanks so much for having me on. Appreciate it. >> And thanks everyone. See you in the next