Survival of the Wisest: A New Approach to Technology Leadership

**[00:00:00]** Hello everyone. My name is Sam Preso and welcome to the web talk show. Today we're talking with Barbara Wittman from Digital Wisdom Collective. Hello Barbara. How are you? >> Hey, I'm doing great. Boy, you know, your last name just rolled off your tongue. You know, I wouldn't be able to repeat that. But hey, >> practice, practice. But it is long. It is. And it's actually longer than that. There's one after it because it's a Hispanic name, so it's actually quite long. Oh goodness. You know, it's like what what pops to mind is uh Shrek. >> Oh yes. >> You know the cat. >> Mhm. >> I um Yeah. And I'm going to kill you. So I hope this is a little gentler what we're doing here. >> Oh yes. Of course it'll be fun. It'll be fun. Thank you so much for joining me today, Barbara. What I've read about Digital Wisdom Collective and what we've talked about in previous conversations is impressive and I would like the listeners to learn a little bit more about your background, where you came from and why you started this collective. >> Yeah. So, um, I was born and raised in Germany. So, I'm I'm an import so to speak. I've lived in the US close to Denver for 10 years. But for the past 25 years, what I did as my specialty is I was called in when digital transformation projects were failing. So essentially, I came in when uh the patient was in the ICU. >> Mhm. >> And uh no one really knew what to do with it anymore. So um most times the board called me in because they saw a big investment being in danger. And then I came in to sort things **[00:02:00]** out. And what I found is a reoccurring pattern is that it was never really a technology issue that I found that was wrong. It was really two things. It was getting the right people into the right places. um empowering them and actually another one is uh give them orientation and uh you know very simple things like giving them a map to follow you know in the best case um because it's so complex that people just get lost >> and um after doing this repeatedly I mean it gives you an adrenaline rush it's amazing you know it's like you know you can be the hero walking away but what I found is that um clients came back because the same thing happened again and I'm like wow how is that happening right so I was thinking more along the lines of how can I get um a change in the organizations where I actually teach organizations how to not even get there or if they get into trouble they can fix it themselves you know they can course correct >> um and um that's what I started doing with the digital wisdom collective. I I train leaders that are in the execution seat and um I work with organizations on how to integrate what I call a human infrastructure so they can actually leverage their tech investments to the max and they stop runaway technology cost because that happens very easily. I hear this very often and I see stats all over blogs and articles and especially now with AI. The stats are staggering in terms of how many technology initiatives fail. Why is that? Oh, just oh I love those stats. Just to kind of dive into that a little bit. So at this point **[00:04:00]** that we have done digital transformation for almost a decade now that it's been a thing we still have 70% of all projects failing. That's a crazy amount each year. And then now we get into AI and because we couldn't figure out digital transformation now we talk about AI transformation. That's pretty clever, huh? We think we're fixing it just by exchanging a word. >> And these go up to 90 95%. that was um the stat for last year. So what we have not figured out is that the problem is not the technology. It really is the transformation bit. And um what becomes more apparent with AI, it really bubbles up everything that's not going so hot in an organization because it forces us to think in a different way. So why are these things failing? because we look at them in a one-dimensional way. We look at them as a technology challenge, but it is much more. It is a people challenge, a training challenge, an organizational change challenge, and at the root of things, a question on how we innovate and how we work well across silos. Mhm. Silos, that is an important word. I see many companies of a certain size >> Mhm. >> have a new tech challenge, a new tech initiative, and the only people who really know about it are here. >> But then leadership is here and doesn't really have an idea. They know they're paying for it, but they don't really know what it does for them. And it might be something that's really crucial for them, but then this other person is doing this other thing and there's >> there's that missing link, right? >> The triangle of death. Yeah. So um I I see that very often **[00:06:00]** and that's uh why I'm a strong believer that um the change and the truth really comes from the middle of the organization >> and uh of course leaders need to be on board um but you know they are not executing things. So the middle of the organization is crucial because that's the place where you cannot delegate complexity anymore. You know, somebody decides up here as you're saying, and then it's just getting kicked down the ladder and then it lands in the hands of somebody who is told to, well, just execute. Just do that. And that person possibly could tell you very straight up if there is the capacity, if there's the knowledge, or if it even makes sense what is planned. And that person may have tried to voice that once or twice and was shut down. >> So they just, you know, tag along and and and do it, you know, to give him reinforcements. They get a consultant that is tagging along. That costs a ton of money, but essentially that person in the organization would know what's best. Mhm. >> So if we give that middle layer the tools to not just empower them but also the tools on how they can play well with other departments then things change. Interesting. So is there a way to train that middle layer >> in a way that they Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, hey, this is like So, I also think we we look at transformation as this big beast that um cannot be tamed. So, we are kind of tiptoeing around it >> because we don't want to poke the bear in a way. And I think it has just kind of puffed into this magical creature that we think we cannot **[00:08:00]** ever tame and manage. But essentially it's very simple because transformation starts with one and we also need to trust that change ripples. >> We also need to get away from thinking that transformation happens in you know snipping the finger and then it's like yay you know one month and we are good. We're running in a in a different direction. It needs to grow within. So in the middle layer, if you have about 20% of your managers trained in a new way of collaboration and mindset, that's when the magic happens because they are really inspiring others to think in a new way. But and here's the caveat, you cannot train that within your organization because that's where the echo chamber lies. So for most organizations, do you have a couple of people that would be amazing if they were only heard, but they have become quiet, but they are still the ones that are trusted that everyone gravitates to. If things get hard, they would go and ask Jim or a secret that's known. But these people don't show up in meetings. They are not like you know running through the hallways banging their drum. So if you take these people and put them into our collective which is basically a training ground and a safe space where they can together with other industry leaders. It is um deliberately very diverse where they can learn a new way of solving problems and they can get some tools on how to navigate and most importantly they learn about themselves. They learn how to really you know stand up and voice what they think and they can try it out because our collective is a place of non-failure. So we empower them to basically bring that back into **[00:10:00]** the organization and uh implement it there. That is amazing. I've had many learning and development professionals on the show because I did a segment on it and many of them voiced different concerns in the training space. Some are more for training being done internally, some externally, some sort of hybrid. But this approach is very interesting because it's finding those people, the right people in the organization that always exist like you said, >> but then not just extracting them to train them on their own in another silo, but within this group, this collective of like-minded people or even differentminded people with different talents. And that's how you do the training. And it's ongoing. It's not just a oneoff. It's a it's a year-long um membership. So, it essentially is a practice >> because we always I mean, think about it. We have it systems. >> We know we need to upgrade them continuously. You know, we patch them, we upgrade them, and then we would never just play a patch or an upgrade into a live production system. We have a staging area. We have a test area. But we don't have that for the people that are our most important asset in the organization. >> That's a great analogy. I like it. So this way they learn, they grow, >> they bring back, but it's a continuous cycle. You just don't you don't let them stale. >> Exactly. And um you know you can start with just one or two people and u then it kind of ripples you know these guys can name the next person that they would think is a great fit and it would really enrich the system. So essentially I I teach them how to implement a transformation ecosystem in **[00:12:00]** the middle layer >> and it's not forced by any way. It really is driven by the people and that's how change really sticks. when you talk about 20% of your managers, what type or size of companies are we talking about? >> So, what I'm doing um you know the the stats I've collected over the past two years um is really best suited for midsize and small companies um larger organizations or very large enterprises. It may be a department that is uh that is very much liking this approach but it is a whole different animal to change the behavior of an enterprise that is huge. So the sweet spot really is for organizations up to 1500 people >> and um that's where I see very fast results and that's where we have collected stats where you know the first thing that shows up is that consulting spend goes down about 20%. Because I mean seriously what happens you know the the consultant comes in asks the people inhouse they really have the answers but no one listens to to them because they are you know the profit in its own in their own land. So, um, again, if you empower the people, um, you're actually saving a ton of money. And then if, uh, you look at it a little bit longer, um, reworks go down. Um, also the execution times are shortened because we teach them and we practice on how to really identify the core of the issue and what the problem is before they jump into a solution. So there's a lot of side effects and what PMI has listed in um in statistics repeatedly that um for every million spent in IT you waste about 100,000 in in rework and collaboration issues **[00:14:00]** and so on. That's a huge number that can be saved. >> Yes. And for those who are listening who are not in the project management space, project management institute. >> Mhm. Yeah, >> that's okay. Now would this approach work also for something technical in nature? Let's say somebody or an organization is considering hiring a consultant or a group of consultants or a consultancy and >> one approach is getting that person to come in and do their thing. Now do you think or maybe you've tried it before what you're doing does would this approach work in terms of oh let me instead of bringing someone from outside to build something inhouse could we do it in a way where we empower the internal staff or a new section of internal staff that are coming in to do it from within the organization. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And you will always need external consultants for a certain impulse. I'm And that's um I I want to make that clear. You you'll never entirely get rid of consultants. But um especially with AI, you need to bring your innovation power inhouse because if you get somebody external, they only can see so much and it's no fault of them. they will you know sell you the use cases that they have implemented and and maybe tweak it a little bit for your organization but if you are training your people inhouse to see opportunities a different way to look at problem solving a different way and and that's what AI really is about we need to to learn how to reimagine our world that is an entirely different sense that we have not used as people so essentially We are forced that we are connecting the dots that **[00:16:00]** are moving and we need to figure out how that works. And essentially it's in our own DNA because we all grew up in in ecosystems that were functioning. We grew up in villages. We grew up in families. you know, it's um in a in a way it's it's almost like reawakening how we play with people and also with things, you know, being AI. That's a great point. We've been seeing this as a success factor as well with companies especially when they're in the upwards maybe of a 100 employees where instead of us just implementing AI workflow automations or whatever directly they bring us on as a two-part >> engagement where there's a part of consulting but there's also a part of training the new resources that are going to stay in there for the long run and work from the inside out and find all these little sweet spot areas to to enhance. Right. >> Exactly. Exactly. And uh I mean that's the magic of AI. I I think especially smaller companies have such a huge lever that they may have not even seen yet. Um but they can easily get, you know, outpace larger competitors now if they play their cards right. And what you're saying with the company of 100 people that is you know the the magical sweet spot but they have challenges that you know how are they scaling and and how are they really getting everything um you know pulled to scale at the same time. So you're totally right. You know you got to you got to leave some institutional knowledge in there so they can basically self-inovate. I I really like where AI can go. >> There's a lot of bad press on it as well, of course. **[00:18:00]** And it could go a very strange other way as well. But what you're saying is very true. If you just start using it, if you start thinking, I have this idea of this process that could be made better or this this application that we're using is just not doing what we need. We're we're being forced to be fit into this box, but I want to do it this other way. AI is giving you that flexibility of now just saying, "Okay, can you build this for me? Can we prototype this?" and you start talking with it and turn out with something that actually works and can be used. And maybe it's not a final version or anything. Maybe you still hire someone to build it for you and maybe they use AI to build it for you. But >> the ease of being able to with natural language create something out of the ether is is something unprecedented. it is. But I want to throw in one caveat to that. Um >> because it really falls back on how much are we willing to look outside of of our own box. >> We are we're only talking about silos usually as organizational units. But if you look at it, we as people, as individuals, we are living in our own little silo that we may have not even realized. So in my world if we want to tap into AI to the max we need to really train a couple of people in the organization not just by you know collaboration and so on but also on self-development on a personal level because >> if you are looking at you know if you have limiting beliefs in you where it's like oh no I never want **[00:20:00]** to work with that guy anymore because I've had a bad experience or hey we've tried that one out so many times. I hear that a lot in organizations. So we need to um look you know within us and say so what what am I bringing to the table that may be stopping me from looking at a broader picture and you need to have a certain number of people in the organization that have that capability. It also asks an HR department and will stretch the HR department to really look at potential of people a different way >> because for me going forward if you have somebody who is like extremely high performant but if that person doesn't want to look at their own blind spots that for me would be a no no. >> Yes. Yes. You reminded me of something we talked about the other day regarding the limiting beliefs. >> Mhm. positive surprise about limiting beliefs the other day when I was doing an outreach campaign. So, we were testing out some AI stuff for a demo video and we were doing an outreach campaign >> and it would do some research on specific types of companies and specific types of people and then generate drafts for emails to reach out and things like that. Just think about that as a basic uh example scenario. Now, me as a person might have looked at a list and said, "Oh, no. this company is too big. I'm not going to reach out to them. They're not going to answer >> this other company. Oh, no, no, this one is I don't know. And you'll have your own limiting factors and you it will stop yourself or no, no, maybe I have to reach out another **[00:22:00]** way. You stop yourself. >> However, since in this case, the tool had none of that >> and no biases. It just went all out. >> Yeah. After a few days, I started getting some replies from these companies that I would have never in my right mind have reached out to. And they were like, "Yeah, sure. Let's talk." Or, "What do you have in mind?" >> Man, that is like such a good example because that's exactly it, right? Um the the tool doesn't have bias. >> It just looks at looks at facts. >> So, that's a great example how AI can be an amazing play buddy and is stretching you. Mhm. >> But then you know when these companies that you would have never touched reach out to you >> and you are clamming up and saying oh my god you know oh that's it's got to be a mistake you know that's what I mean that's why we need to continuously upgrade both sides the AI and the people because then we want to have the right response in that case and of course you're going and you know confidently and say yeah I can offer for you guys. Something that's mind-blowing. >> Exactly. That's a great point. And I it's it's very interesting because we see children, >> especially if you let them be children, >> not have those limiting beliefs and be able to create things without concern, without doubt, without limitations. And if you give them tools to draw, simple tools like like pencils and colors and things, but now even like we were seeing the box the other time where >> sticker box, >> a sticker box where you could just tell it's something, it'll create it and draw it for **[00:24:00]** you and print it. It's it gives them now additional tooling handled with care of course, but it gives them that potential to build things or ideulate things that maybe a grown-up wouldn't have because of those limiting beliefs. So maybe sometimes we need to try to be like children in that sense of explore and >> absolutely >> right. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I could not agree more. Um, and u, yeah, we just see certain things a certain way. So, when I was talking to my niece a while ago, um, she was saying, "Hey, I I drew something." And I'm like, "What is it?" And she says, "It's a uniig." I'm like, "What's a uni pig?" Well, it's not a unicorn. It's a it's a pig that's a unicorn. And I'm like, and in my head it's like, "Oh, that's bleep." you know, it's like, hey, that's a unicorn pig, right? And I kept asking and I'm like, so why did you do that? She's like, you know, unicorns don't exist anymore. Why can't we make things >> Yes. >> So, you know, you got to find your uni in the organization. And that may be hiding somewhere. >> So true. I was talking the other day with a leader in a corporation, not in the United States, another country, and they were saying that with a technology initiative like a big ERP system, >> right? Think SAP, Oracle, any of those monsters. The cost at a high level of implementing it same thing here in the US versus over there was let's say $5 million here, $15 million there. Not because of the software, not because of the economy. Obviously, other country the economy isn't as great, >> but because of the human layer like you **[00:26:00]** were saying underneath. So even if we put all the AI aside, just regular technology implementation in a company can be greatly more complex >> in a country or in a in a different culture that doesn't have the underlying layer of people being trained in basic concepts of computing or technology or other things. Yeah. >> Out in the field or even inside the city. No, that's uh that's a a great point and uh I mean many listeners are going to start, you know, getting the nervous eye twitch when you say SAP. That's uh but yeah um there is a big cultural point there on on how we are going about issues and and how we collaborate and um that's exactly the point why I wanted to make the collective uh an international thing that you know there's uh different different um cultural backgrounds that come together and uh since I keep it pretty open and say hey if you are moving the needle in transformation. Some are directors, some are managers. So, um, you know, there's like a big hodgepodge and you don't just have one age group, you have different age groups. So, I think we need to have containers like that because everyone brings in a very valid uh viewpoint and that's what I have also seen living in the US for 10 years, coming from Germany, man, you know, what a difference. Um, some things I am relearning about myself on on, you know, how to, you know, go more into risk and so on. You know, Germans are very risk averse. We we want to plan things out. Um, but I'm also starting to see where the sweet spot is between the cultures and uh, you know, the the magic really lies **[00:28:00]** in the middle always. >> That's very interesting. So the collective will have not only people in the same type of industry >> and different industries but also people in different nationalities and different countries that are working in completely different ballparks. How how is that interaction? Do you see people engaging more because of that fact? I love the reaction you have because that and and more of it I got when I started this two years ago because people basically told me I'm crazy. It's never going to work. Um and uh you know I I think we we are living in times where we ought to try things a very different way. Um so yeah it it is a wild mix of things and how we are keeping tabs on it and and what really grounds it. We are functioning around a common set of values and uh that is what we repeat in every session we have. Um everyone who is joining the collective is doing a value assessment that we have developed to understand what is their personal values and out of that you know we lump it together and we form the collective values. Over time they slight they may change slightly because there's different people coming in. So it's basically always a mirror of who's in the room and we use values as a governing structure. So you know how we do things, how we communicate, how we act is based on the group values. That's basically a governance light. And we encourage people to also um take that into consideration when they go back into their organizations. They may have company values that are just written on a web page and no one is using them. >> Oh yes. I've I've seen **[00:30:00]** many a company with a values statement and mission that is just something that somebody wrote because they had to. But it's not a it's not a company culture thing. >> Yeah. But just knowing what your core values are and you know what is um helping you to communicate and act that's a huge piece and there is a lot to be done so everything we are doing and we are training upon is based on that values foundation and I think that's a very underrated uh tool we all have and that's very easy to understand Yes. How this might seem like common sense, but how do you determine universally Um, so again, what we use in the collective is what uh that's what's basically a combination of everyone's individual values. So it shows us um you know the overlaid picture of everything. >> Um yeah >> like a ven diagram of >> exactly and yeah I mean we we could also go in and say these are our three values that we don't want to diverge and that's also a way of doing it but if it's co-created it it usually has has more power. >> That's great. I when we were every day because we work with different companies, I might be on a call with someone in India or someone in Dubai or someone in the UK or someone in Mexico or someone in the United States, East Coast, West Coast, right? >> I think what you're doing is excellent because it's getting people who don't typically interact with people outside their little bubble. >> Yeah. >> And getting them outside their comfort zone. >> Right. And you know what the the interesting thing is because they have interacted with somebody they would have never **[00:32:00]** talked to. >> Mhm. >> They also go out and they may be asking the UX designer in their own company for advice and for an opinion. >> Um it really is again it's a practice thing. You know if you are seeing that it works elsewhere it it makes you a little bolder to try it uh in other places. That's a good point. So, somebody might have had an idea of a concept but thought, well, this will never work, but then they see it's working somewhere else and maybe it's working by three or four other companies. And then that Yeah, that that could give them strength to then go >> and tell the technical guru inside the company, hey, why aren't why aren't we doing this? >> Right. Right. And you know, honestly, um, everyone is struggling with the same thing. And and that is also something that is extremely comforting and empowering at the same time because we're always thinking of ourselves that you know it's oh my god I'm struggling with this it's got to be me you know maybe if I was going to work harder or work longer or just you know no more um things would be better and then you hear that others are having exactly the same challenge uh and it's it's more neutralized and once you take the charge away solutions come much easier. here. H I love what you're doing with the collective as a tool, service, whatever we want to call it for larger organizations. >> Do you think there's a space? It's a little bit of a charge question, but do you think there's a space for something like this for the entrepreneur, the basic basically a soloreneur or small business owner where there's five **[00:34:00]** employees and the real responsibility lands on one person. And I've heard from a lot of business owners in that space that they're alone or they feel alone because they they don't have anyone else to share >> the hardship, the struggles, the doubts, the would this work, >> etc. Which seems like something like the collective would be fantastic for them, but it's it's a completely different ballgame. It is and it's not, you know, and and that's um that's another box we we're thinking in, right? It's like, oh, could I mix transformation leaders with entrepreneurs? It actually works because the challenges are not very different, you know, it's just um on a different scale or maybe on a different detail level. But uh yes, you know, we've uh we've also had solarreneurs or uh startup founders um in the mix and that actually enriches the the conversation because there's always a danger. So if if I was to only do that for startup founders, they are all kind of swimming in the in the same in the same issues. Um so you know we also need to uh need to be a little bolder and say maybe I can learn from others that that are coming in from an entirely different angle. So um it is an applicationbased process to join the collective and uh we have a couple of um questions. You know if you're answering that in in a meaningful way it doesn't matter who you are. >> That's excellent. I see great potential in that for for everyone right all across the board because the enterprise leader or maybe we're talking not necessarily enterprise but large midsize company leader or manager can learn something from the entrepreneur the same way the entrepreneur can learn **[00:36:00]** from that next stage of yeah maybe they're the best at what they are right now but if they are going to scale at some point they need to learn what the challenge is and also growth patterns are in the next stages. >> That's so good. >> Yeah, it's uh it's really fun. You know, it started two years ago more as an experiment if this could work and we worked in in small uh cohorts and uh started with organizational engagements and um you know now we're well beyond the point of proof and um now we just started to open it to general admission next to the alumni. Um it's not found on the website yet because things are moving a little uh faster than we can we can hop along right now. Um, but I'm sure we can put the application link into the show notes. >> Amazing. That would be great. I think a lot of people listening would like to entertain the fact that there is something like this and perhaps it's something for them. I Yeah, I think what you're doing is awesome. It's uh it's not something we hear about too often and it's not necessarily just learning and development. It's a little richer I think in some senses and I think it's definitely needed in most organizations. So it's I'm really happy that we had a chance to talk about it because there's there's so much that can get out of it uh and we could discuss a lot more. But if people want to find more about Digital Wisdom Collective, about you about the process of your content, where can people find you Barbara? So the first point of uh contact would be the website digitalwisdom.co but that is a **[00:38:00]** little static right now. We're lagging behind in updating that. That gives you a general idea. If you want to stay on the pulse of my thinking and how things are evolving. Substack is the best place. I just put out a couple of articles about um talents needed for 2030 and um how we can help with that. Um so that's a great place. I write once a week. So, or follow me on LinkedIn. >> Excellent. So, I'll put those in the show notes, the website, your Substack as well, and then your LinkedIn so that any of the listeners if you're interested, you can learn more about what Barbara is doing and what the digital wisdom collective is all about as well. What would be as a closing thought a recommendation that you would give to a leader in the positions that Well, I I think what uh Darwin put out as survival of the fittest is not the right thing to look at right now anymore. um because the one with the loudest voice and uh the best education may not be the best transformation leader. So I want you to look at this a different way and I think it is about survival of the wisest and wise leaders know how to ask for help. They know how to leverage their experience in the right way. They know how to connect dots that are moving and they may be the most quiet one in the organization. That's excellent advice. I really appreciate Barbara and I really appreciate you coming on the show. This was very fun and I hope to see you again soon.