From Brilliant to Credible: What STEM Leaders Need to Know

**[00:00:00]** Hello, everyone. My name is Armando Perez-Carreno and welcome to The Web Talk Show. Today with us is Shayna Davis from Executive Signals Group. Welcome, Shayna. How are you? I'm good. I'm happy to be here, Armando. It's a pleasure to have you. I think people will really enjoy this conversation because what you do is sort of a behind the scenes for leaders, specifically in the STEM space, I understand. So why don't you tell us a little bit about you and how you got here and what is it specifically that you do? specifically that you do. Yeah, well first of all, I want to applaud you for being willing to have this conversation because oftentimes, you know, those of us who are in the tech space or in the technical space and we have podcasts, we only just want to talk about the direct technical tactical things. And I often say, if we're not also going to look at how we need to lead differently, then, you know, we're still not going to win in the next decade. So thank you for being willing to have this conversation on your show. So I wanna, before I tell you exactly what it is that I do, I wanna share a story with you of an organization that I was hired to support. I was hired as an employee, not a consultant. There was a Silicon Valley billionaire that was coming out of retirement to start a new tech company. And he was looking for people with certain skillsets that would be good for the founding team. And I was hired to help this organization off of the ground. And the closer and closer that that company got to launching, the tech team, like the CTO, the head of engineering, they were told that they were going to have to start having conversations with investors and potential customers about how what we were building was really going to revolutionize their industry. And for those of you that may just be listening to the the audio and not seeing the video, I'm a black woman. I'm not super, super dark, but I'm a black woman. **[00:02:00]** But these two individuals were from the Middle East. They were much darker complected than I am. And when the founder told them that, they turned ghostly white. And I recognize then, Armando, that there's oftentimes a competency gap. When you're a technical leader, you're brilliant at building the thing. You're brilliant at leading your teams internally. But when you have to start engaging externally, that's not necessarily your competency or what it is that you're comfortable with. And so what I do is, STEM companies hire me when their leaders are becoming increasingly visible to media, investors, and customers. And I actually help prepare those leaders to be able to represent their company with trust and credibility, using some of my frameworks. Yes, that makes perfect sense, because especially I think in the tech world, it applies everywhere, but we all know that the typical person that is a software engineer, that leads technical teams, et cetera, might not be the first person you think of to go on stage, right? It's just there's plenty of them that do, but there's that gap that you talk about. And this makes a lot of sense because sometimes they are the ones that know the product the best. They are the ones that when put in the right environment can actually just tell you, just talk your ear off about what it is that the product does and how it works because they know the insights. But if you just put them on a stage, they'll go blank. Yeah. Well, and think about the world that we live in nowadays, the trust gaps are so wide. And if you don't know how to influence and communicate in a way that can actually demonstrate trust and credibility, it's just going to erode even more. **[00:04:00]** And you said they know the product in and out. The problem is that oftentimes they're not able to articulate exactly what the product does and why it matters in a way that other people that don't understand it can understand. And then the other thing that I noticed is missing is that they tend to just recite and regurgitate what we could probably find on the website anyway. And think about when they, and it's not even just on stage, think about when they might be having a conversation with someone that wants to invest in the company or come to work for the company or they're trying to talk to a customer that needs to use the product, the customer only needs to understand how it helps them. They don't have the ability sometimes to dumb down to other people's level, but one of the things that I notice is missing the most has nothing to do with how great the product is or the features and the benefits of that. When they're talking, they're only talking about the company, but how often have they ever ask themselves, like, what is my unique point of view about what it is that we're building and where this industry is headed? And I think being able to speak to who you are as the leader and why you're in this industry and where you think this industry is headed gives so much seasoning to anything that the comms people could tell you to say, anything that you've memorized that is on your website, anything that you could tell me about how great the product is, you're gonna season that conversation so well when you're able to layer in your unique point of view and your own leadership narrative and not just sound like a corporate branded parrot. You know, that makes a lot of sense. Nowadays, when I look on X and I see there's somebody high up in the company, maybe it's the CTO, the CEO, someone that's actually active and giving out **[00:06:00]** their point of view, it gives you a much different taste for that particular company than if I just see regular social media posts from the PR department. And you know what happens? Nowadays, I used to say a new shiny tech comes out every three months. Now it's like every three hours, there's a new technology on the scene. And when you have leaders, when your leaders are visible, when they're also credible in the way that we're talking about right now. The outside world, which that's where perception and reputation is actually being built, longer the days that you can just have a strong product and the right team. Like that's not what's gonna help you win in the next decade. But when your leadership are visible, when they're credible in the ways that we're speaking about right now, I'm less likely to look over there when the next tool comes out, because I've been able to identify like, wow, Like the people that lead this company and all of the magic that is behind this company, it's not even just about how great the product is. I'm able to say, you know what, these leaders are actually someone that I can get behind and I can stay behind and I will want to continue to follow. So then I'm not distracted by the noise of the next bright, shiny object that comes out because of the level of trust and credibility and authority that the leadership team has conveyed. So if the only thing they're going to talk about are the features and the benefits, guess what? Later this afternoon, they're probably going to find out about another technology that has amazing features and benefits as well. So how do you differentiate yourself in the marketplace where that perception is being built if the only thing that you're hanging your shingle on is just how great your product is or how great the team is that's building it? Yes. I'm seeing this recently with the voice AI space. **[00:08:00]** So for those of you who are technical, the WebRTC, voice, calls with agents, that sort of stuff. Like you said, new thing coming out every day, multiple times a day. So there's many providers in this space and there's many aggregators that put providers together. But the ones that I seem to be following more or want to adhere to what their platform does are the ones that are actually posting things, they're doing case studies, but real things. They have someone on screen showing, hey, this new feature came out from this other person, now we're using it, here's a demo that you can use right now, that sort of thing. And so that gets me engaged and say, oh, okay, so this platform is not stale, it's talking to its community, it's listening to what the community wants, and it's showcasing it in real time to the world, and I don't know, that makes me connect more. Absolutely. And it hasn't always been necessary. If we go back in time, if you think back in like the IBM days, if you didn't have a reason to know who was leading IBM, you probably had no idea who was leading IBM. Then you fast forward to Apple and Steve Jobs comes on the scene. So now it's like the CEO is the brand, right? You're starting to see that more where the CEO or the founder is the face of the brand. But if you look at where we are now, you have companies like Nvidia, and I mess his name up all the time, so I'm probably going to mess it up now, but Janssen Long or Jensen Wang or however, I'm sorry if you're listening or somebody on, I'm going to learn your name right but I mess it up every time I use this example. He has done a really good job of making sure that his entire core leadership team is actually equipped to tell the story and represent the company and it's not all just resting on his shoulders. So my question is, is who's next? You know, now Nvidia, what like quarter before last they had like $84 billion in revenue **[00:10:00]** or something like that. So I think the proof is in the pudding. And obviously, that's not the only thing that we measure success by. But my point is, is that the times that we're in now, where there's a war for talent, trust gaps are widening, and technology is continuing to disrupt, and people are trying to figure out how they navigate that level of disruption, no longer can your company afford to not know who the leaders were, like IBM could get away with. No longer can it just rest on the founder's shoulder like it did with Steve Jobs. The entire core leadership team now, it's now becoming part of their job that they have to engage externally. So let's make sure that they are actually equipped to do so. I've got to get the quote right, but Mike Tyson said something about, you know, it's all fun and games until you get punched in the face, or I don't remember what his exact quote was. And the reason why I bring that up is that too oftentimes what I've noticed with tech companies is I can come to a founder and talk to them about why it's important to make sure that their leaders are developed in this way and they don't prioritize it until they're punched in the face. So I'm hoping that by being on more shows like yours that more tech companies will hear these conversations and will prioritize and be proactive in getting in front of the narrative and getting in front of the trust gaps and the market share and the fundraising in this way instead of waiting until they've been punched in the face. So what does punched in the face look like? Your competitors who are doing this, they're poaching your top talent and your competitors who are developing their leaders in this way are also poaching your customers. So don't wait until you've been punched in the face. Prioritize developing yourself and your leaders in this way now because it's going to affect your fundraising. It's going to affect you attracting and retaining top talent, and it's also going to widely **[00:12:00]** determine how you are gaining market share. This reminds me of the musical space. So the musicians, they're musicians, right, especially orchestra musicians. When they're at a certain level, they sometimes have to go to these fundraising events and they have to talk to the patrons. And when they can't do that, because maybe they're too contained into what they're doing and they might be the best at what they're doing, but if they can't do that part, then it is less likely that they're gonna get the donations that that particular orchestra needs. That's right. So in this space, it's the same thing. It's the same thing. And I think you hit the nail on the head. It's not that there's something wrong with you, clearly you're brilliant. The problem is that you've never had to be developed in that way. You've never had to show—well, not never, because I don't like to speak in absolutes—but oftentimes you haven't had to be developed in that way and oftentimes you haven't had to engage in that way as part of your role. But now that is what is required. Like I said, you take the company that I shared the story at the beginning of the show. When the founder said to the tech team that they were going to have to start having conversations with the investors and the executives of the industry that they were building this technology for, that was not their strength. I mean, listen, I worked there and there were times that I'm like, I have no idea what y'all are talking about. I work here. I understand. I don't understand the intricacy of the product the way that you all do because I'm obviously not the CTO and I'm not the VP of engineering, but I'm very well accustomed to why it's needed in the marketplace and what problem it is that we're solving. And I have no idea what you're talking about right now. And obviously that's just the communication piece. We haven't even gotten into what are all of the different areas that we need to develop **[00:14:00]** in in order to be able to show up credible. But just the communication piece, I'm like, my goodness, you're so smart that you're having a difficult time conveying complex ideas in a way that everybody can understand. And when trust is down, that's going to erode trust. So again, you know, we've talked a lot about the communication piece, because that's where our mind naturally goes. But that's not even the only way or the only areas, if you will, that we need to make sure that we're developed in to be able to show up credible. What can a company do in this scenario where they know they have to start talking to investors, they have to have their talent upscaled to be able to communicate? So what does that process look like? just like a little behind the scenes of what someone can do. Absolutely. So before I give you the tips of the things that you can do, I wanna share my approach. My approach to this is leadership identity, leadership branding, and leadership messaging. And most companies just want to skip to the messaging part. They're like, great, my team needs communication and media training, hook us up. And I'm like, listen, we can't jump straight to getting you camera ready and media ready. There's foundational work that has to be done first. So I wanna break down the approach first and then I'll share some things that teams can do if they're like, yeah, we need some of that. Leadership identity is who are you as the leader and what do you stand for? That's where your unique point of view comes in. Like, what is your point of view for either the industry that you're in or the product that you're serving, you're selling. Maybe you have a point of view about where this industry is and where it's headed. And since it's headed where it's headed, what are the things that we need to avoid? And what are the things that we need to make sure that we do from your perspective? Because you have one, right? **[00:16:00]** You have a perspective, whether you've thought about it or whether you've been conveying it or not. So that's the leadership. All of these are signals, right? So these are the three signals that we have to make sure that we're broadcasting as a team. Number one is our leadership identity, and that's who we are and what we stand for. What is your leadership narrative? What is your unique point of view, right? Leadership branding is, that's where it comes down to like, what does your profile say? Do your pictures look like they were taken in a backyard barbecue where you crop somebody out because I can still see part of their shoulder next to yours? That's your actual presence of how you show up. These are the visible cues that convey whether or not you are a credible leader. And I'm not asking you to change your wardrobe. I'm not asking you to become someone different than what you are, but I am asking you to become more intentional. And then the third part is the leadership messaging. And that's obviously the ability to convey your ideas in a way that is valuable to whoever it is that you're speaking to, because obviously you have to know your audience before you can sharpen your message. So that's kind of the three-pronged approach and the three areas that you need to make sure that they are built in to be credible. Because we can't just jump to the messaging and we can't just start with the branding. We have to start with that leadership identity or else there's no seasoning. That's when they become that corporate branded parrot that can repeat what's on the website. They can say what the comms people have told them to say. And I'm not saying that you don't need a comms team, but I'm saying that we have to layer in some humanity into what it is the comms people are saying. So if people are listening to this and they're like, never thought about it, but I'm on board, or I have thought about it and we have no idea what to do, here's some practical things that your team can do. Number one, I want the founder and all of the leaders who are visible **[00:18:00]** to ask themselves, what is my unique point of view? And if they cannot answer that, Number one, clearly in less than 30 seconds, and without mentioning the company or what it is that the product is, that's the first place to start. You don't need to do anything else if you can't do that. Some other things that you can do is review your LinkedIn and your photos and your bios and ask yourself, do those actually convey the credibility that you would want them to convey? If not, do what it takes to fix them. get some better pictures, write a better bio, you know. And on your LinkedIn, in my opinion, your about section should not just read like a resume. That's already at the bottom. Your experience of your resume is already at the bottom under the experience section. Think about your about section to convey your point of view and your thought leadership, not just what you've done and where you've done it, because that's below. There's no reason for you to give me a paragraph or what is already gonna be listed below with the experience. And then the third thing that I would say is evaluate just one external channel that your leaders are showing up on and ask yourself, are they actually articulating their ideas in the right way? Are they actually articulating their ideas in a way that builds trust and influence or is it actually making the narrative harder? I often say, like in sales, don't create objections. You know, they talk about overcoming objections. Don't create objections that you then have to try to figure out how you're gonna overcome. There's gonna be enough objections to overcome. But those are just some simple things that anyone can review and assess today and begin to reshape to make sure that they're actually demonstrating the brilliance that we know that they have, and that the product can then shine the way that we know that it needs to shine. **[00:20:00]** Because again, strong product plus right team is not what's gonna equal success where we are in the world now and where we're going. That's really helpful. I think a lot of our listeners are gonna start just sparking a little bit and be, oh, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I should clean up my LinkedIn a little bit. Maybe it does read like a CV or maybe I can't explain my point of view in the company. These are, these are all great things to think about. In your experience, Shayna, what is the biggest or more, not biggest, I would say What is the most common barrier that you see when you go into a company and they start off? What's the biggest or most common issue that you see in this part of the process? Yeah. Well, the biggest issue, as I say, is that they don't think that it's necessary, so I'm not at the company to begin with. But for the ones that have taken the step to say, I do want to prioritize this, one of the biggest misconceptions that I have to debunk right away is this is not about being performative. Hmm. This is not about being fake and phony. This is not about being someone that you're not. It's just about being intentional about the signals that the team is sending. Because when we talked about, you know, the trust gaps, the talent war, the tech disruption, those are the signals that every company is receiving right now, and you can't do anything about that. But you can do something about the signals that your leadership team is sending back. Because when your visible leaders are credible, you're going to have a competitive advantage over all three of those challenges. And so the number one thing that I have to overcome is that it's not about being performative. It's just about being more intentional about the signals that you send. And then the second thing is that it's not about being loud, right? There's a difference between noise and sound. **[00:22:00]** And sometimes the leaders that are getting the most attention are the ones that are the loudest and meanwhile there are leaders whose brilliance the world needs that we're not hearing because they're invisible. And so companies who think that having a great team and having a great product is enough means that they're okay being invisible or they're okay with only the founder being the the one that is visible. In my opinion, where we're at in the world now and quite frankly where we'll probably continue to be for the foreseeable future, we can't afford to have visible leaders. When I say afford, we can't afford even from a monetary standpoint because when your visible leaders are more credible, your investor confidence is going to go up. You're going to gain greater market share because you're now going to be able to convert and keep more users, talent is going to want to continue to work here so now you're not having to pay the cost of recruiting and replacing and training and all of the things. So there is an actual cost when your leaders are either invisible or lack credibility when they are visible and there's obviously intangible costs as well. expensive to be invisible, and it's expensive to not be credible when you are visible. For sure. You don't wait until you're punched in the face. Yes. And I think a very good example that's simple to understand is the smaller business. So if you see a smaller business or a solopreneur and they don't have any presence, then every time they are on a sales call, they have to explain who they are, why they're good. They are sometimes asked for client testimonials. Can I talk to one of your clients? Stuff like **[00:24:00]** that that you would never hear from a big brand. However, if that solopreneur or entrepreneur or small business has a presence, then when someone comes to a sales call, they already know everything. They just want to know if you're a right fit or they're, as a client, a right fit for you. And it just turns the table completely just because you're present. You're going to increase the chance that they're going to get on the sales call, and you're going to increase the chance that when you get to the sales call that you really can focus just on the features and the benefits of the product or service and whether or not it's a mutually good fit. They're very seldom are they even going to feel as though they They need to ask for a testimonial or a reference or review from a customer because why? That trust is already there. And again, I'm not saying that you're not trying to be an influencer. I'm not saying that you have to be online 24 hours a day. One of the things that I actually like about LinkedIn is that they actually kind of quote unquote penalize you if you're posting too many times a day. So that's the good news, is that if you're in a B2B world, LinkedIn is the primary place that you need to be anyway, and they actually don't want you to be on there all day every day because they're trying to protect the integrity. However, if when someone does come to your LinkedIn profile or to your website, because they probably are, if they're a sophisticated buyer or there's a particular price point, and I'm assuming that if it requires a sales call that it's over a particular price point, they are going to check you out online. And if what they read in your about section and what you convey in your post is doing all the things that we've talked about so far, they pretty much have already made a decision for the most part before they even join the sales call. **[00:26:00]** They may even do to you like I did to someone back in December. And I was like, we actually can skip all of that. I know why you're asking those questions because I understand the psychology behind sales grips, but I actually don't need any of that. I've actually already made a decision. Now I just need to know the details of it and what it cost. Why? Because they had already, through the sales process itself and what I had found on their LinkedIn, they already had earned my trust and they had already conveyed that they were credible, as did their leaders. Because I checked that out too, I kind of work like that. I checked out like who are the people that is working for this company too because it was a substantial investment that I was making and I was gonna be working directly with other people on the team. I didn't have any concerns. By the time I got to the sales call, it was, okay, great, I have a couple of questions, and then how much, what is my investment? Yes, that's an excellent example. And to many of us, it will depend on where you are, both demographics, age-wise, and just your active engagement with social media and platforms, but people who follow Gary Vee or Alex Romosi will very clearly understand, because they're nailing in to you that it's very important to be present and to be there and to be consistent and all that. But there's a lot of people who missed all that. Because all this is very foreign. They're like, how am I going to be present? How am I going to do social media? And it sounds like something far off. But at the end of the day, you are doing the exact same thing whenever a customer comes into your business and you talk to them and you have the joy, if you're an entrepreneur, about how it works and how you're going to help them. It's that. It's just you're sharing it with many people at the same time instead of one on one. And you're actually, you're also, and this is really important, especially when it's **[00:28:00]** not your own company, is we talked about, you know, the importance of, you know, you having your own unique point of view. Some of the things that you post, not always, but some of the things that you post need to be what your own thoughts are. Develop yourself as a thought leader. Here's the other thing that people don't always want to hear. Even though you work for a brand, you are still a brand inside of that brand. One of the things that personal brands do extremely well is they don't just talk about what their company is and what they're selling. Now, I'm not saying that that means you've got a post where you went on vacation or what it is that you had for dinner, but you do need to share your thought leadership. You do need to share how you personally think about things, because that is going to shape the perception, the reputation, and is going to directly reflect the trust and credibility that you're conveying. And so if you're thinking like, I don't even know where to start, I don't even know where to post, I'm going to say, if you post twice a week or however often you post, make sure that at least one of those posts every single week are your individual thoughts, are your individual point of views. We're not talking about going rogue. We're not talking about being unprofessional. But I want to hear what you as the leader think. I want to hear what you believe. I want you to help give me certainty about where we're going because those are the questions that I'm going to have and those are the concerns that are going to be raised as time goes on. And I can't just keep going back to your post that tells me what the product or service does and keep going back to the company website because that information is probably not going to change. And the leaders that are behind the technology, because I do believe that presence is the the one thing that technology will never be able to replicate. The humans that are behind **[00:30:00]** the tech is the only thing that can build this trust and credibility. Features cannot do that. Yeah, especially now, because now we can build a full application in a day, in a few minutes, an hour. These LLM tools are especially good at coding, and if you know what you're doing, can replicate anything you want. So what you're saying makes perfect sense because yes, anyone can build it and there might be four competitors that do the exact same thing. And exactly the same quality, maybe, but one is going to make the connection with the consumer. If you can be the one that makes that relationship, then they're going to come with you. What if they're comparing you? What if what you do is the same or similar as another company? Maybe it's even only one. If they're comparing you, that can sometimes be the differentiator is what it is that they see from the founder and from the leadership team because people trust people, people don't trust companies, right? Like the company in and of itself is just a name, it's just a logo, it's the people behind it that really make up the company. That's who we trust or don't trust. That's why I said ask yourself, how are you benefiting your competitors? Because if you're not being credible in this way and your competitors are, your talent is going to potentially leave and go there, your potential talent is going to not come to you and is potentially going to go there, and your customers are probably going to buy from them and not you or stop buying from you and start buying from them because that's that intangible thing that they can grab hold of that really speaks to the heart and not the head. And I'm not trying to be mushy or emotional when I say that, but when people are making buying decisions, that's usually a decision that they're oftentimes not always making with just their head. **[00:32:00]** And so you want to be able to affect change in all of the ways that you can affect change, And that's by making sure that your leaders are not invisible and making sure that they're credible when they are visible. Yes. And I like that you touched on the human side of it, because it's not mushy, we are humans at the end of the day, that's what we are. And we are attracted to the humanness of other humans. So even when you talk about sharing your perspective, it's you as a person within the company sharing your perspective, but then also you might share other things that are not exactly related to it, but then, and we've seen this happen a lot, someone might actually come to you because you are a fan of the same team. Yeah. Right? Or because you like picking blueberries, or because you ride bikes, or you play the bass or the guitar, and that's in real life, but it also happens anywhere. Yep. Right? Yeah. It's amazing what connection points people have and can find. Now the reverse of that is true. You're probably going to have some ding-dongs out there that is like, I don't want to do business with Shayna because she's a San Francisco 49ers fan. Well, that makes you a ding-dong. But my point is that the opposite of that can be true. But what we've seen is that more times than not, it plays to your benefit than it does your disadvantage. being funny here, but it does, you know, if you're being rogue or you're being unprofessional, I used to say if you're being offensive, but we live in a world now where everybody's looking to be offended about anything and everything, so I can't even say that anymore. But more times than not, it's going to play to your advantage by sharing than it is your disadvantage. And again, I'm not saying that you have to share your spouse and your children and what you ate last night and where you live, but you should share what's in your head. **[00:34:00]** Yes, I agree. What have you seen in the type of content that people are starting to get into? I personally started seeing that more and more leaders are trying to get into long form content. I don't know if they're being advised that way by the new versions of PR companies or what's going on, but I see this sort of shift of people wanting to be on shows, wanting to be in long-form content, wanting to write larger type articles. Have you seen anything in the space? I have. I've seen the same thing and I agree with it, and my reasoning for why may not be what everybody else's reasoning for why is, but I do think it's a valid point. There's so much trash in the marketplace these days of people that don't really have depth and experience. Like I've been doing what I do for 21 years. I've spun these blocks quite a few times. And one of the things that I think happened during COVID especially is that, and this not a direct parallel, but although it can be, a lot of people took a course to learn how to offer a course. And what you recognize is that beyond the sound bites of the commercial, or beyond the short text that is on their sales page, or the short video that's on their sales page, when you buy the actual course or you hire them, you recognize that they were a great marketer, or they had a lot of money to spend on advertisement, but they don't actually know much beyond the sound bites. And since one of the things that I talked about is one of the signals that all of us are dealing with are trust gaps, I believe that in longer form content, **[00:36:00]** you're able to really get under the hood and determine whether or not it's truly an expertise that someone has, or were they just crafty enough to speak in soundbites, and then you realize when you get on the other side that they don't really know as much as they have alluded themselves to be. I like to say they were Facebook famous, right? And with AI, everybody's marketing sounds good, right? Everybody's soundbites sound good because we're using machines to create it for us. Now, not to say that Claude and other tools can't create long-form content, but especially, I mean, like with the conversation that we're having right now, you and I have been talking for over 30 minutes. If I didn't know anything beyond a quick soundbite, this conversation would have gotten real dull, real fast, because we wouldn't have anywhere else to take it. And so I think in long-form content, you really have more of an ability to demonstrate your thought leadership. And I believe that we live in a world now where thought leadership is the only thing that is going to stand and is going to actually differentiate us, because like you said, if you even halfway know what you're doing, you can create an app. And so I quickly could say, I'm the founder of the so-and-so and only knew enough to be dangerous. Yes, yes. And it's very interesting because people who have never listened to a podcast, they have no reference point to how big they are in terms of the Joe Rogan's of the world or whoever you're talking about. I just say Joe Rogan because of the size of his audience. So being such a massive personality because of the size of the **[00:38:00]** audience. And then considering the fact that these podcasts run for three, four hours. It's, it's mind boggling. But when I, when I tell someone about a podcast, they're like, but, but when, when do they listen? And I'm, that's the thing, you can listen to a podcast anywhere. You're walking the dog, you're in the car, you're shopping, you're carrying the baby to sleep, whatever the case may be, you can be listening to it in segments. You don't have to sit down for four hours to listen to it. Right? But you get so much out of it. And like you were saying, you get an intimate relationship to the thought process of that person. So you start to understand how they think, what they stand for. Because of these long conversations, you get these nuances that you won't get from a little snippet or a little course. And I think it's very powerful. I did too, and oftentimes that's how we're gonna decide what companies we're gonna follow because those are the leaders that we were we were able to get behind. You know when I think about when I was hired by this tech company, he flat-out told me in the interview process this is either gonna go really well or it's not gonna go well at all and there's no in-between. But I had already bought in to the story that he told, and I bought into him. And so I was willing to roll the dice. When we got about three months in, four months in to the company, and we realized that there were some things that we probably had hired too soon and we didn't need, and they asked me, you know, you can either come over here and help us with this until we get to the point that we need you for what it is that we hired you for, or else if you don't want want to stay, obviously we respect and value that as well. **[00:40:00]** And my response to them was, unless you ask me to hang on the outside of this building and clean these windows, I believe in you and what it is that you're building. And I want to do anything that I can to support that coming to life. But if the only thing I knew in the interview process was what it was that they were building, which by the way, I still didn't understand at the end of the interview process what they they were building because I'm not a Silicon Valley guy or gal or tech person, per se. I probably would have, number one, maybe not gambled and come to work for the organization or not wanted to stay there or not still have the level of relationship that I have with the people that I started with and I haven't been there for over years or whatever. But it was because of the story that was told And it was because of his individual thought leadership and all of the things that I was like, this is something that I can get behind even when I don't fully understand it. You know, this is a company that I wanna work for. This is a company that I wanna shout at the rooftops. Like this is a company that I wanna buy from. And I would not have gotten that if I would have had a three minute interview with the head of HR that could just tell me what the role was and probably couldn't even describe to me herself what she was building because the company was so new, I don't think any of us other than the founder really knew how to describe what it was that we were doing. I kind of understood it conceptually enough to be like, oh, okay, I guess I'll learn more. But yeah, like that's how we make decisions about who we're going to rock with is based on the leaders. That's how we determine if this is a person that I feel I can follow, then this is a company that I feel like I can follow. And that's what the whole point of all of this is. If you want to raise more money, if you want to gain greater market share, this is just as important as the team you hire and the product that you're building. **[00:42:00]** For sure. I think when you talked about the short snippets, it's, I just gave this example yesterday on the show, but it's very clear when I heard it from MrBeast, I don't know if you heard that little clip, he was saying that there was this big event and the shorts people came out first to the field, let's say, right? All the TikTokers, et cetera, which, granted, it's amazing what they're doing. The level of engagement and audience that they have, incredible. They have millions and millions of views. So the audience claps and everything. I was very happy with them. But then the long form YouTubers come out to the field and the crowd goes wild because there's more depth, like you were saying. But then the live streamers come out and the stadium explodes. Even more. Even more because there's that uncontrollable amount of depth that you have to have to be able to live stream and engage with an audience in real time. Absolutely. That that's like the highest level, like theater, where it's with a live audience and you actually—you're there and you have to interact and you have to be able to think on the spot. So your expertise has to be for real. Yeah. Even in this podcast, when you, you know, you talked about people listening to podcasts, you didn't send me any questions ahead of time that you were going to ask me. I didn't send you any questions ahead of time that I'm going to—that I wanted you to ask me. Like, we've been talking now for over 45 minutes and this was not scripted, you know what I mean? You know your stuff better than anybody else. I know my stuff better than anybody else. So we should be able to talk however, as long as we decide to talk and still be able to add value because we know our stuff. **[00:44:00]** Exactly. And we can work. Yes, yes. And that's the reason for this show. Like the Web Talk Show, that's the whole thing that I have had the opportunity to be invited to like, you know, the local news, getting by to for something a long time ago. And it's scripted, it's like two questions, they have an agenda, you don't get to say anything of real value, and... And there's only three people in the audience that actually want to hear what you have to say anyway. They're like, we're in millions of homes, yeah, but only four of them actually are my ideal audience, so what difference, why is that good for me? And it's not good for the speaker, it's not good for anyone, and so I, in my mind, when I started the show, it was, no, I want to give the opportunity to whoever that comes on the show to be the star of the show and like actually show what they know. And that's why it's unscripted and notional questions they're saying, because like you, they're the expert in what they do. And, and that's what we want to show. I, I don't want to showcase myself. I want to showcase whoever's on the show because that's the whole point. We all have this amazing talent and all our times are different and all our expertise are different. And I think it's great that people get a glimpse of the behind-the-scenes of what happens in all industries like yours, which is such an important part of leadership development and not so publicized as it's supposed to be. I get really, really discouraged, and I'm hoping that if you talk to me a year from now that this is not my same level of frustration. I get really discouraged when I go to tech conferences, you know, I'm there all day or I'm there two or three days. And the entire two or three days is chock full of what is going on in the landscape of the tech world and the VCs that fund them. All of the innovation and all of that is great. But not one person has talked about the fact that in order to keep up with all this innovation **[00:46:00]** and all this change that we're also going to have to innovate the way that we lead. And it's very, very discouraging to me on one hand, but also one of the reasons why I am so stay on my path, if you will, because I'm like, listen, yeah, you're right. Innovation is happening all around us. It's great. It's making millions of dollars that will continue to make millions of dollars. Cities are growing, all of those things. But if we think for one minute that we don't also have to innovate the way that we lead, it is a missed opportunity. And you asked me what one of the biggest challenges is. The biggest challenge is that I don't think that companies prioritize this soon enough or at all. And so that's what I would lead the listeners with is that recognize that in order to win in the next decade, that you and your team are also going to have to change the way that that you lead and presence is no longer about how you show up in the room. Presence is about how you're perceived by the outside world. And that's really what's going to shape the companies that are gonna win in the next decade. So let's take this seriously and start with the, you know, the tips that I gave. And if you wanna know more, you can always reach out to me on LinkedIn. If there's any way that I can help, I'm happy to do so. Thank you so much, Cheyenne. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for sharing your expertise and your knowledge with the listeners, if they do want to find you for the show notes, should I put your website, your LinkedIn, how can people find you? Yeah, that's fine. So my website is executivesignalsgroup.com and on LinkedIn, I'm Shayna Rattler Davis, just like the snake, R-A-T-T-L-E-R, Shayna Rattler Davis on LinkedIn. Excellent. Well, thanks again for coming on the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you haven't, please like and subscribe to the show you know about the new episode that comes out and we'll see you in the next one. Thanks.