Borders, Laws, and Prosperity: Why North and Latin America Differ

**[00:00:00]** Hello everyone, my name is Arando Prescareno and welcome to the web talk show. Today we are joined by Cladio Tresis, award-winning composer, musical director. He has led multiple orchestras ranging from symphony orchestra, chamber, ballet, and even jazz and big band. But today we're talking about his book laados where he analyzes and questions the source of the difference in prosperity between the US Canada block and Latin America. But I won't give too much into it. Let's dive right in. Hi, Cladio. How are you? Welcome. >> How are you, my friend? That's so so good to see you and talk about those crazy things I've been looking for lately. >> No, it's always a pleasure to talk with you. There's always invariably surprises in our conversations. You just there's so many branches that you can take and it's always so interesting. So, I wanted to have you on the podcast because I think a lot of people will really enjoy learning about all these different sides of both the legal part of things and the music and how it all came together to build this amazing book. So, first of all, music, right? We were talking about how this came along. So, this is a book that is not about music, but it sort of came about because of music. So what can what can you tell us about what the beginnings of why you went into this path? >> Well, I I was uh uh conducting my orchestra and then the in the university of Nolon. They came with the idea that I could maybe give a lecture about the history of jazz and I I was at Berkeley College of Music many years from now before. And so I said, "Okay, I'm gonna read something **[00:02:00]** and prepare my lecture." And then I came up with this uh mention that in Louisiana they were uh it's the only state in the US where you have the common law, the English law, and the continental law, the the law normally associated with Rome and the Roman codes. And so I I started wondering what was the difference? what what's common law how how does it work and how comes that you can have a state with both figures working on on parallel and then well Canada has also the same because they has this English part and then the French part and um so I I dug a lot about uh the history of common law in the British island and that was amazing that was mindblowing how in the 9th century Uh it started with the Anglo-Saxons who just had come into the aisles and then they came the the Vikings and they were perpetually in at war and how the England wanted to preserve at that time at that early time the English language and the the English way of uh of doing uh justice or whatever how how we could call that. And that was so amazing because uh I went there it the history of of the British island and how the parliament started and how the they made Magna Carta that was an unbelievable and modern uh document and that was so fantastic. And I thought after that I said okay there are a few modern new countries and I thought about Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand and I said all of those countries they use common law maybe just maybe because of their prosperity being so young as young and younger because the the the the pilgrims came to America from **[00:04:00]** England more than a century after Spanish rule. So they they were 100 years uh be behind uh the whole establishment of law and society and how comes that they managed to be such prosperous countries and my question was maybe it's about the use of the English law and versus the the the Spanish or Roman law that was applying in all Latin America. uh maybe this was the reason why this difference in in outcome. >> Wow. And for those of us who are not versed with the law, what could you very briefly in very simple terms explain what common law is so that we learn a little more and get more context? >> Well, I'm not vers in law either. I had to study and and get into it. Now the the amazing thing is now the possibility of of learning anything through the web through YouTube if you want something quicker or something practical. But when I started researching for the book, I could go to the archives of Middle Ages and and Seila and and all the documents in the original. I could have the original paper and see it by myself and see different interpretation of the papers. And that's so amazing because I'm not a a law person. I just wondered about this problem and I couldn't find everything that so many papers and so many documents. That's mind-blowing. And so I still wonder why people use so much time with Tik Tok and and all those social thing when you can learn whatever you want. It's a astronomy. Whatever you like, you can learn it now without going to the university. that that's amazing. So, uh coming back with some definitions of uh English law and common law and and accusatory **[00:06:00]** system and uh and u the other system it's what's used is inquisitorial system. So in the English common law what you have is sort of uh you don't need to have laws to leg to to make the law work in this society. You you just need that uh you use president in the different cases that uh it appeals in a municipal level at a municipal level. So the figure of the reeve and of the sheriff it's a it's a an administration administrator of taxes but also of law and sheriff is it's the oldest institution English maybe not so well as as royalty but it's the second most ancient tradition in England and uh the law that it's a common law. It's also like a French word because it's like commune. It's the community. >> It's the law of the community. And you have also another uh uh figure that's called the uh let me read it. Uh let me take my glasses because now I cannot see as well as when I was younger. It's commit. It's a a Latin uh phrase that says the power of the county. So, you don't need to have a whole bunch of laws because in the in the Roman law also, if you don't legislate something, you cannot uh uh make the laws. You cannot have a trial because first the law and then the trial or or or the social thing that that matters. And in common law it's the other way around. You the it's the the county it's the people who just decide what is good and what it isn't and and the norms are not written at the beginning. Then it started to be legislated. But it's just it's a society. It's the the **[00:08:00]** municipality who decides what is good and what it's wrong. And there you have this uh word that's called moral. Moral comes from a a Latin word that means the uses the social uses. It's not like the emperor is saying what's good and what's wrong and he has to have a whole bunch of flaws because everything must be thought before. Mhm. >> something wrong happens. And in common law, it's the other way around. You just have a problem. Okay. What happened to you? Ah, this guy made me. Okay, let's get together and let's discuss it. And then we decide because we as as as a group of people, we will decide what's good and what's wrong. >> And so it's like building the law from down up. And Roman law is building the law from up down. And the the the terrible thing about this is in in America, the laws of the of the American uh people that they were you had some empires like the Inca Empire and the Mashinka and then you had all these nomadic people and they legislated in Seilla in Spain like thousands of miles away and they didn't care if you if it was Apaches or or I don't know or Inca people they just legislated thousands of miles away for people they didn't even know and for social context they didn't know so um one of these uh things that were amazing for me is the pblo the Indians the Spanish came to America and then they they found like uh it could be people from the empire or just nomadic people they destroyed where they lived and they founded this towns the Spanish towns where it was called the Indian town Indian because Colon thought he was **[00:10:00]** arriving to India and he was wrong. I think he just found a continent somewhere in between. So you had this uh social imposed structure for people for indigenous people that work well when these people came from uh uh empire because the the notion of cities and of towns was okay. They they knew that they had lived in these towns but with only nomadic people. Nomadic people said I cannot live in a town. I need to be free. So you had all these clashes and all the things that legislating for millions of people with different backgrounds, different races and different it's crazy how how could the Spanish do that and well that's how we arrived with this difference this abnormal differences in the same continent. And when half of the US was of the Spanish Empire, Luke was common law according to my theory did with California, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, and Texas. All Spanish names. >> Look what they did with common law with the same territory with the same vast net deserts and everything. And look what happened with Sonora Bafa California and Puawa. It's a an unbelievable difference. It's like two different planets. If you take the the the prosperity, >> that is that makes a lot of sense. And and for those of you who are listening who have not seen the difference between those towns, I invite you to research it. that these are border towns or border states from United States and Mexico that as Claudia is saying they're culturally if you I don't know culturally historically the same people right same territory but then there was a shift when when they became part of the United States and at some point it something changed because the top of the **[00:12:00]** border there there is prosperity and below but not necessarily as much. And so, and again, same people and many of them still go back and forth uh because it's their families even split across both of them. But it is very interesting that there's such a distinction regardless of it. It's not like oh just it's just geographic thing. It's not a >> Not at all. So the the thing is the numbers the statistics are are mindblowing because if you take that I I that's what I'm talking in the first part of the book if gross uh revenue I don't know how you call the richness of a state okay >> okay >> difference economically of what you produce and what you spend okay >> the state of New York the state of New York only has a bigger pave than the whole Mexican count. Yes, it's 120,000 million people. They produce less than in New York state. Just one state of the US. And it's not the richest states because you have California, that's number one, and you have Texas, number two. And unfortunately they are in the border. And so the the difference is like having Swiss Switzerland and Germany on the border. >> Yes. >> It's unbelievable how how rich and how important US is in statistically. And then you go with science, space and uh sports and arts and it's a unbelievable difference between these two parts and they are like crossing a river only and and this do you think based on your research that it it is something mostly to do with the language? itself or is it the I mean the source and everything that comes along with the language or is it the just the legal structure of the **[00:14:00]** English version of it? >> For me it's a thesis of the book is the legal system because um I I've studied for for instance the um call the the the laws for how you drive it. I I'm not sure how to this the code the code for driving and if I wrote I read it from Toronto, from Texas, from Mexico, from Ecuador, and from Buenosides, they're almost the same law. So, what happened? Why do we drive so awful? And with the same laws, what happens that they do it much better in the US and Canada. And this is enforcement. The law is not important. The law can be the same. But if every citizen thinks that the law is something that is against their freedom and they don't respect any of them. So that's why in in in all Latin America because they think they truly think that abiding the law is something that is against their freedom, their liberties. Why should I respect the the maximum speed limit? No, because I I I must go. I'm I I must go faster and and why would I stop as as a yellow uh line um light? I'm I'm in a hurry. I'm going to accelerate instead of of breaking as in Canada and US they do it. And if you have a stop sign, you stop. Why would I stop? I'm looking. There's nobody there. So, I'm going I just go. And this goes in every aspect of our societies in Latin America. We think that enforcement is something that's uh that uh doesn't allow us to be free. So everyone does what they want in and in Argentina you can spit on policemen, you can beat policemen and nothing happens. And you can imagine **[00:16:00]** what happens when you let's take us away in Switzerland and in Germany if you spit or or beat a policeman you go in jail and no one will tell or you are against our our human rights. I have the right to speak and to to beat a policeman. Why would he beat me? What right does he have to beat me? Come on, man. Wait a minute. It's important. It's it's the norms and and every norm in in Latin America, you can be late half an hour and nothing happens. But in in in Germany and in in in in UK 3 minutes, five minutes, it's untolerable because they started they studed what happens when you get late and it's mind-blowing all the consequences economically, socially, in the work environment. Being late is so so terrible. and they care and and they are the most punctual people. And in Latin America, no one cares. No one made a study of what's happened when you get half an hour late and everyone says it's okay, let's wait 15 minutes. >> So it's not of of the norms. It's a problem of being conscious that you need to follow the norms what no matter what. And there's there's repercussions. I I'll get into uh a question about why. But just out of experience, I remember traveling. I think I was in Berlin or somewhere when when I was younger, I was traveling on my own over there and I had to get on a train to go to another city and I was almost late because I was I met by coincidence another friend from Mexico over there. And >> because you were Mexican. >> Yeah. No, no, no. We were having fun. We forgot. We were like, "Oh, **[00:18:00]** no." And I had to run. And I I ran so I would get on there on time. And the train left exactly at the time. And so I was looking at my watch. Fortunately, it left right on time because I I barely got on because I was looking at my watch and I was able to get there, jump on the train, and and it left. But right on time, right? So that wouldn't have happened if they didn't follow time, right? So I would have missed it or it was be something completely different and we sometimes don't see that it's all compounding. It's like when you see a a line of cars, right? They're all stopped. And if if you're the first one in line and the green light goes, you just go, you don't go fast, right? But if you're the fifth one in the line, it takes like 60 seconds for you to start moving because first the first one has to go, then the next one, then the next one. If one of them is distracted, you're going to take minutes, right? Because it just it compounds the weight. So in all these countries where time is not respected what happens is all those train schedules everything just moves and and then there's there's no reference of what the real time should be for something and it just creates additional chaos right so why what do you think >> uh in the cause do we think it is based on the the fact that common law makes people sort of feel that they are part of just historically and I don't know in our genes or whatever that that they're a part of creating those laws and thus they respect them more than **[00:20:00]** they're coming from the king or somewhere else and we're like no no no I don't I don't want anything to do with that just historically because of what we've I don't know got embred embedded into our our bodies or DNA through time right is there do you think there's something >> there's another interesting thing about the same um there's this uh brilliant French uh historian who went to the states and I think it was in uh 1780 1790 something like that and he was blown away by the freedom by the culture he said I read about the history of King John Shakespeare's work in a in a log in in the woods and They know how to read. Everyone can read and everyone has books. And he was he said it's amazing that it the democratization of knowledge in this country is so vast and and so everyone can read. That was unthinkable in Spain in the 18th in the 18th milit. >> Mhm. They had the same level of um of uh alphabetization than France and England in 1650. They were two centuries behind. 90% of people in Spain didn't know how to read and to and to to write. And that that was all the all all history in Latin America was like that. You could not. There were no schools, just Catholic schools and Catholic universities where you could only learn what the holy Christian church wanted you to learn. And in the 13 colonies, you had Swedish people, it was New Amsterdam. New York was New Amsterdam because they were people from the Netherlands. And you have uh you had Quakers and you had Catholics and you had Irish people and everyone was just in maybe in some different states, but **[00:22:00]** you had this variety of cultures of and Holland was a republic and uh you had other people that already had this democratic view of policy making and of policy living. And so they started with culture with uh technology. They didn't they didn't had to abide to the holy Christian the the church about well uh uh flatearthers. Okay. And that's what you that's what they said well you know in in America in Latin America the first university was in Mexico and then the second one was in Corova in Argentina and then Chukisaka and then yeah but you have Harvard and Princeton and you have Caltech and you have everything and they started much later as I told you aundred year later and they started to educate the people and um this interesting also on on the design of the cities and in Spanish in all our towns in Latin America you have this huge square where you have the three powers you have the cathedral you have the army and you have the government and that's how it's designed society was designed like that how were the the towns in in that you can see in in in the United States before they became United States you had the saloon You had the bank, you had the the sheriff office and the church was outside of the town. And so there was tok said in the US you uh learn about law and about law making because you have these juries you have to these people of the of of the same community who will decide whether you are or not guilty. >> Mhm. So you are living the the law socially every day if you want but the the Roman law no it's the judge **[00:24:00]** who will decide and who will accuse and who will do everything the accuser will be held in prison it's called the u preventiva >> because you are guilty as long as you don't prove that you are innocent and in the in the law in British law you are innocent before you are proven guilty and so you can see the switch in in in mental structure that believing that someone is guilty just because someone accused of him >> until it's proven otherwise and in this in the English law you are innocent before being proved otherwise so it's a such a different way of thinking on society and of norms. And uh if I can tell you about something that was very strange for me when I first went to Toronto to stay two weeks for a festival and uh all of a sudden I I could witness that Toronto were aggressive on the street. They started yelling to one another. I said, "What's going on?" And I when I go to Texas, everyone is so friendly. And I when I told them to to Canadians that Texans were more friendly than Canadians, they wanted to Canadians especially. Yeah. And so I said, "What's going on in the society? How can be they so aggressive?" And then the next year I was invited again and we parked with my friend the car on the street and then two cars uh uh from our car there was this guy coming from the car and then one guy from our house was yelling at him, "Hey, what are you doing?" And it was, "What's going on, man?" It's because the car of the guy who was parked it was like five inches on the on the parkway. So the **[00:26:00]** guy was reacting because the other one was not abiding to the norms. You don't put your car even two inches blocking this. And in Latin America this never have no one cares. They park on your parkway and they don't care. They say, "Come on." And so I understood that Canadians were more prone to to make the society abide the codes than maybe the Texans because the the Texans were kind of I'm not saying that because I know how how the law is is is uh enforced in Texas. But I understood that the society was the one who used and needed to care for norms. You don't you cannot have a policeman in every street. You cannot have a judge or a tribunal to say no is the society who takes care of the norms in the common law real. >> That makes sense. So it's not that they were more aggressive. It's probably that they're actually more kind and and and respectful and everything, but if something out of place happens, they respond and >> they respond. >> They they maintain the It's It's very interesting. I remember this stuck with me a lot when we we were staying in Vancouver for about a month a few years ago and I drove across one of the little bridges to another section of town because I was going to get a bike. Someone was selling their bike and I needed for a while. So I got the bike. But it was very interesting because I was driving. >> Exciting. >> Yes. I was I was driving and the street or first of all it was this part was interesting. It was one of those streets that have, I don't know, three lanes and then because it **[00:28:00]** was outflow time or whatever was traffic time, they closed two of the lanes from the right side and made the other ones go the other way, right? Not very efficient. And so cars were coming this way. So on my lane turned into one, but there were three lanes where we were going that turned into one, but we never stopped. So, I was driving and I couldn't believe that we were going and from three lanes to one, the traffic never slowed down. It just everyone just merged very nicely and very efficiently into one. And I was so surprised. I said that would never ever happen in Mexico. >> Mexico City even worse. >> Yes. >> It's like tangled there. >> It's it's it's amazing. And and it's like there's levels, right? because that was impressive. And then here in the United States, they they drive mostly very well. And but then in Mexico, you have to have know what you're doing. Argentina, I tried driving once. It was a very interesting experience. On the other side, >> very scary. >> I had no idea what was happening on the street. Look in in Buenos you have those huge avenues a cordova Santa Fe and um you have the lane painted >> you are five lanes always they are six lanes of cars they don't care that that that the lanes are painted on the road it's a a mental problem how comes that you have five lanes painted on the street and you get six lanes of cars and just pulling one on on the other side. It's crazy. It's a It's a mental problem because the lanes are for respect to them and you you drive in between the white lines and and when they **[00:30:00]** don't care if if the lines are too huge, the citizen believes that he has the right to create a six lane >> to make the the traffic more efficient and it's the other way around. >> Yes. And and what's very interesting I think is that here in the United States when when some people move from one of these countries to here while there might be some adjustment period mostly it's pretty quick they start enforcing themselves like it's someone who was acting completely as they would in their country they get here and suddenly they follow all the rules and they drive well and Yes, >> they stop. And so I I imagine I don't know what you think it's has to do with they when they're here they know that the law is going to be enforced and thus now they they do it. But leads us to ask ourselves why aren't you if you understand how this works and you can do it even visiting this other country, not to mention living in it. Why can't you do it back home? >> Because it's dangerous. I tried it. I was some some uh it's like uh six years ago my wife went to Houston to take care of the babies of of an EI. It was very interesting because they were at the the medical school and they were very busy and they had just had a baby. So they needed someone and and family Christina said okay I'm going to there I'm going to babysit your kids. Uh I was working here and then I had like two weeks of uh leave and I went I drove to to Houston, I stayed there for two weeks but in this not in a hotel but **[00:32:00]** really living in the society and and following rules and everything. And so when I came back to the bridge in Mexico, I said, "Okay, I now I'm driving like an American. Let's follow the same rules." You can't. It's dangerous. You cannot stop in a stop sign because the guy will you cannot see the the yellow light and break because the guy wants to to accelerate. You cannot follow the rules because it's dangerous for your life. So the thing they the Mexicans and the Latin Americans say that you follow the rules in Texas because the the fines are very expensive. So I told them, "Okay, man. In Texas, people earn 10 times the salary of a Latin American. So, no problem that the fines are 10 times bigger. It's no problem. It's it's an adjustment of the of the wealth. No, >> good point. >> Yes. And it's not that it's expensive and that's why the Americans don't follow it. No, it's because it's enforced. >> Yes. And it's enforced. But it's enforced by the citizens because I know that when I go to Texas, they see I have a Mexican plate and most of Americans say this is a Mexican. he will be doing and as soon as I do something wrong, they will yell at me and honk at me because they know with a prejudice maybe that I will be more prone to to do wrong things while I'm driving. So, it's the citizens who yell at me. I don't need a policeman to to give me a fine. I don't want to be insulted at every corner, so I better behave. So, nothing happens. But there's a very interesting thing about Germans and maybe Americans when they go to Spain Germans and **[00:34:00]** in spring break when they come to Mexico because all of the sudden all this orderly and lawabiding Germans behave like hooligans because they know they can do this in our countries. It's like a liberation of the whole system that don't allow them to do whatever they want and they go to Spain and they do horrible things. They don't care about the law because they they know they can finally don't do whatever they want and then they go back to Germany. It's the other way around too. Wow. Because Germans would never do what they do in Spain in Germany because they know it's very serious what they do. But once they feel free to break the laws, they do it. And that's a problem of the human nature. It's not a problem of common law or or or Latin law. It's when you live in a in a situation where discipline because no one works harder and it's more disciplined than Germans and Japanese and that's why they're so wealthy. But they live in a in in a situation where everything you must take care that everything goes well. You don't have to go wrong with the law or with the norms. And all of a sudden you go to a country where you can do that. you want to try that and you did you do horrible things. I know that because that's what my my brother lives in in Germany and he's from Argentina and he tells me it's a shame what Germans do in Spain and in Portugal but it's because nothing is enforced. They can do they think they can do whatever they want. And that's very interesting on a psychological point of view because you you get the Latin people going **[00:36:00]** to the state and behaving great because they don't want to be yelled at and and fined. But the law-abiding people of the prosperous countries when they go to a country where law is not enforced, they act savagely sometimes. >> Yes, I can imagine. You were talking before we started the recording about how back when King Alfred was in the throne, you talked about King Alfred the he was trying to establish the language so that he wouldn't have such a big issue like we're talking about now with the different cultures in this case the Vikings and and other groups. um how did it why did this happen and and and what was the context? >> Well, it's it's uh very strange because uh this book is about history documents and testimonies. Nothing is ideological. Well, we have biases, but I try to be as as uh uh how can I say to look for documents? Everything must be proved. I don't have opinions. I I need to if I have it, I need to defend them. So, how could I make a book where people who are not at all who don't agree at all with my thesis and especially in Latin America because they say the their the wealth of US is because it's anmonic country and uh it's imperialistic and they want to take over the world. Okay. But when they came from England or whatever from Europe to the 13 colonies, nothing of this was true. So it's not like that. It's the wealth of the US is not because they wanted to take over the world. So um how could I write a book for Latin Americans where after the first page people who are don't agree just throw it away? How **[00:38:00]** how could I do that? And naively I thought okay when I I can prove with documents every statement they will have to think for a moment and then throw away the book because ideology is like that. It's >> you cannot reason with ideology. There's no way. It's a a problem of a mental problem. Okay. So when I started to study uh all this thing about uh King uh uh Albert in in in the 9th century trying to figure out uh what other problems he had with Vikings, with uh Welsh people, with uh um uh uh Scottish people, I'm sorry. So uh he invaded well the the Anglo-Saxon invaded in England as all others did as the Roman did centuries before. So the thing is he wanted to preserve or he wanted to uh make people of the the Anglo-Saxon race. >> Mhm. to preserve the language and he had been in Rome and he had been in Europe and he has seen that education is one of the most important things about the society. So he founded schools and he tried to preserve the English language especially contrary against the Vikings because they have been uh fighting for centuries the invaders. And then came William the Conqueror from Normandy and that was Frank French and and then it was so important that he could preserve the English language in in a part of of the British England so that when the Normans came with the French because don't forget that the two devices that on on the on the English uh aso how you call that uh the the sign of of Bridget with the unicorn and and this the how do you call it this the symbol of of England. >> Mhm. >> The **[00:40:00]** two devices are in French on and those two devices in a British empire are in French. So how comes and this is because of the Normans that came from France and invaded and and then uh they just conquered the Anglo-Saxons. >> Mhm. And they brought the law, the continental law. And that's very interesting how finally the Anglo-Saxon law provide prevailed because everything was like like mixed and they were uh battles and maybe the future of a country was just for a not stupid but for a minor reason. Maybe the king wasn't go to battle because he had a stomach ache because he had too much drink and maybe the battle was lost because he didn't go because or he has a some argument with the the queen. I don't know. >> Mhm. >> History depends sometimes on this tiny tiny little things. So uh to make these two ideas uh together the rigoress of having all documents all all things so that people doesn't think I'm biased it's not possible because we are all biased by our culture by our education but anyway so I try to look for this documents of King uh Edward And uh it's so so interesting that every time I try to to write down some opinion, I said, "Wait a minute, you need to back it with some historic moment and with historic documents." And that was something in this book that was so interesting and so important because it's uh I'm sure that less people can argue I'm wrong. >> That's I I which brings me to another question. When someone is writing a book because this is very foreign to to almost everyone. If you want to write a book, it it's not as easy as just **[00:42:00]** sitting down and writing a book. I mean for as much as you could especially now with AI and everything and you could just tell it to write something but writing a real book it takes a lot of effort. How long did did it take to write the book? >> It started before the pandemia >> and the pandemics helped a lot to develop the ideas and to look and to search because I'm a busy musician. Mhm. >> So when everything was closed, it started before it started at I think uh 2018 I think 18th and then 2020 everything was closed and so I had much more time to to develop the idea and to search and to read why nations fail and to really think that all this work was worth trying because I'm not a writer I don't have any uh literary uh u aspiration. I'm just telling the fact. So, and then also they told me you have to put all these um um when you site document or anything you put number two it's from this page and I didn't do it. I just wrote I found this document because I read it in this article. I don't know and I went to most the Roman code Justinian um the others that made the huge thing. Then the the goats because they went the goats went to Spain and they stayed there for centuries and they had this code and then came the Arabs. I didn't uh speak too much about the Arabs because it should I should read write another book about the Arabs in Spain. That was the best thing that could ever happen to Spain is that the Arabs came they brought in mathematics, culture, medicine. Uh it's a an **[00:44:00]** unbelievable contribution to Spain. And then came uh the goats and then came the um this uh after they are supposed to have a bank van. um they could make the the the Arabs go away and it was not a military uh campaign. It just was an an agreement between partners where they they bought the Boil, the king of the of the Arabs, the the queens, the Catholic king and queen. They bought just they did the contract. I will give you this and you give me that. And then the guy said, "Okay, I'm I'm not leaving." He stayed there. What they did is they took all the Jews out in this horrible uh uh just when Colin was leaving. That's very interesting. The Jews had to leave Spain the 1st of But oh, all of a sudden they they extended for 10 more days this date and Columbus sailed in those 10 days that were added because he was founded by Jews and the people who went to to discover were mostly Jews. So, it's unbelievable that the king of Spain added 10 days to allow Columbus to leave the country because he couldn't leave earlier because of the winds and because of some things, logistic things and they extended it 10 days for Columbus to leave Spain and not imprison him. >> Oh goodness. And and everything that happened after just because of >> wow that there's so much history that we don't know in general because we just get taught the little bits of pieces of whatever the school book had and like you were saying at the beginning nowadays you can find so much information in the web and virtual libraries and all sorts of things that yeah I think I think more **[00:46:00]** people should be enjoying looking for because it is enjoyable. If you see it in a textbook, it might not enjoy you. But but if you if you find something in the niche that you like there Yeah, there are some very interesting stories. For example, I remember I never knew about the Venetians. Like I I heard I think the first time I heard about the Venetians was like on Disney's um there's in Epcot the ball. there's there's this ride that takes you across history and so it explains uh how how you go and they're like then definitions they had to talk in a certain way so they figured out like what when did this happen and this was a long time ago when I realized but there's so much history that we don't know the thing is one of the first lines it's epigraph in in Spanish epigraph >> that's a a short line that you put on the top of the chapter that defines the chapter. Okay. So this book is defined by this epigraphy who said history is a Napoleon Bonapart and that's history. It's a bunch of lies that we socially accept because we need heroes. We need to be proud of our country and in some countries they had not a not a single brilliant person. So you have to invent it. You have to uh I don't know uh military campaigns and and battles that you won because otherwise you could not have this uh national pride. So you have to invent a lot of stuff in history and history is a little bit like truth. It's a a collective construction because you can it's it's a very use it's used a lot of times when you say there's an accident **[00:48:00]** on the street and then you ask 10 people around what happened and this 10 people will tell a different truth and they were all there and they saw the same things but from a different angle of vision and from a different mental perception. So, uh, it's like it for me it was mind-blowing when I heard about this guy. This was a naval engineer. He went to Las Vegas when there was this and all in this whole there it has been thousand of pages written about what happened and so this guy said okay there's a few things that no one explained and he saw one piece of the Holl and he said no man there's something not not good. Something is wrong. And so he just forgot everything he had written. He stayed with a blank piece of paper and started to research and he discovered 100 years after the Titanic what really happened. And it's mindblowing. It's unbelievable. It's such a a shift of everything of what is not clear with the first the theory of Rena in 100 years. And so when you have this um you need a very flexible mind first of all to discover what is not truly right and then don't stick with the the truth the the truth we all agree upon as Napoleon said don't stick with it just wonder >> is it true can it be true and then when you find a little hole there go for it and research and then you will find some unbelievable story. Then you say >> That is brilliant advice. I I think we should all live by that. Cladio, it has been a real pleasure talking today during this show and I'm sure we can have another conversation another **[00:50:00]** time. I don't want to have take too much of your time. But where can people find the book? Is it available now or where when will it be available and where? Uh we had some pro it's already printed. We have a whole edition printed but we had problems with uh some uh economic things there that are not clear with taxes and everything. So we hold it a little bit until we are sure that we can have it on different I'm not telling the the the a uh platforms you can buy it. So, we have to wait until August until we can fix this uh little uh problem and then it will be available on I have a website that was done by the the editors so that people can ask for it and then we will really do all the presentations that we can here in Mter first then in Guadalagara field and then in every other uh big uh um book uh uh ex exhibit >> and go for Ecuador and Argentina because my testimonies are also of three different Latin American countries that are so have so much in common not abiding to the norms. >> Yes. Yes. Amazing. Well, I'll put it in the show notes and whenever you let me know that it's available, I'll add that there as well. >> Sure. Sure. Fantastic. >> Can't look for it. I can't wait to get my hands on it as well and read it because every time, like I said at the very beginning, every time I talk with you, there's so many things that I learn and I just want to learn more. So, I think the book is going to be a fantastic experience for >> I hope so. And **[00:52:00]** then then one mystery maybe they can solve someone. Why can you see those two crosses? What what does this mean? And uh many people don't understand that, but they should research it. >> Nice. Excellent. So, you heard it. If you're watching, and if you're just listening, they'll look at the screen at some point and look at the cover of the book. And if you can figure out what those two mean, put it in the comments wherever you see this so that uh we can we can all find out what these really mean. >> Okay. It was such a pleasure. It was so nice. >> Thank you so much for coming, Clauddio. and and I'll I'll I expect we'll we'll talk again soon.