From Camera to Courtroom: An Emmy Winner's Journey Into Injury Law

**[00:00:00]** Hello everyone, my name is Armando Preso and welcome to the web talk show. Today with us is Sean Olsen from Olsson injury lawyers. Hello Sean, how are you? >> I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. >> I am very curious how you went from Emmyinning photo journalist to injury law. How did that happen? >> Yeah, it's a bit of an unusual career shift I think. uh you know I I did uh photojournalism and television work for about 10 years after I graduated college and uh loved it. I enjoyed it. I got to travel the world, meet people, tell stories and uh but it was never a thing I did for the money uh because there's just not a whole lot of money in it. And uh so I always promised myself that when it stopped being fun, I would find something else to do. And uh it just got to that point. Uh it was early 2000s. Uh you know, shortly after 9/11, uh the projects I was working on all got cancelled. I was uh trying to figure out how the heck I was going to pay rent and that kind of thing. And I thought, you know what, maybe this is finally the time to start looking at something else and uh and find something else to do. And so I I spent a little bit of time sort of wandering the desert and uh trying to figure out, you know, what that next step was going to be. And oddly enough, law sort of uh anchored itself in my brain and uh and I went after it. You know, it was one of those I I looked at it as as it gave me the ability to still tell stories, but at **[00:02:00]** the same time start advocating for people and, you know, hopefully make a difference in lives along the way. And uh yeah, I jumped both feet in and never looked back and it's worked out great. >> That's amazing. I never saw it that way. You actually do tell stories, right? If you're in litigation, it's it's it's a whole art of storytelling. >> That's that is all we do. Yeah. And especially, you know, then in its purest form, you know, it's when we go to trial, >> you know, we have to tell our clients stories to a jury of six or nine or 12 people or whatever the case may be. Uh and it's and and that's the best part, you know, getting to do that and tell stories that actually make a difference in people's lives. uh you know it's a unique opportunity that you know not everyone gets to do in in their uh their working lives. I think >> I ex No, it definitely isn't es especially trying to get people to understand a point of view that they might have prejudices against and in many cases they might have already made their mind before even going into it. >> Yeah, >> that's that's got to be tough. How how do you get into the mindset of I'm going to explain everything to them in a way that they understand where I'm coming from? Not trying to convince them, but rather to to make them see the other side. How how do you do that with with so many people at once? You know, I think the the thing that we do that makes us most effective. The the really good trial lawyers that do this is we just talk like people, you know, **[00:04:00]** we don't it so often lawyers want to talk like lawyers, you know, and use Latin and big phrases and words and and we lose the we lose the lose sight of what we're doing. We lose that line of communication between people. And you know, if we just talk like human beings and uh you know, talk the way we talk to our family or our friends, that I think is the single best way to tell stories to move people because they understand it. You know, we're not I'm not taking a position of superiority or knowing more than they do. I'm just letting them know what happened. And uh and generally speaking, I think people want to do the right thing. And when they learn what has happened, what's brought this person to be in a position to have their story told, to hire someone like me, I think people get it and they they understand what happened. They understand why it happened and for the most part they want to do something to fix it. >> Wow. What I mean there's people that listen to this fortunately from other parts of the world, not the United States necessarily, that might not understand the judicial system here and how everything works. So could you briefly explain what is a jury and and what is its position in a case here in the United States? >> Yeah, so the United States is unique in that respect. Uh we're one of the very few countries that allows civil cases, so noncriminal cases to be heard and decided by juries and you know it depends state by state it'll differ you know exactly what that looks like but everybody has trial by jury available to them. I mean, it's even **[00:06:00]** in in our constitution, the seventh amendment. And what that means for us is, you know, we've got a judge in the courtroom who will rule on legal issues and make decisions, you know, as to what evidence is admissible and, you know, what kinds of things can be said and what kinds of things can't be. But ultimately, it's a jury. It's a group of people, you know, theoretically a jury of our peers, you know, taken from the community, whatever that community might look like. and they get to decide uh how the case is ultimately resolved. You know, they can, you know, whether that's for the plaintiff or defendant, the amount of money that's exchanged, if there is any. Uh it's a unique system. I I think it's, you know, I think it's a really good system. It it takes important decision-m out of the hands of politicians and bureaucrats and it puts it back in the community. And you know what better system could you possibly have than to have community members making decisions for other community members? Uh it's a great system. >> I agree. The last episode we had Clauddio who is not an attorney by any measure. He's he's a musician. and he's a very talented artist and he wrote a book on a study of the legal systems between Mexico, United States, Canada, Argentina, etc. and how >> part of this could have affected why some of these nations are more prosperous than others because of the fact that he was telling us since it's a jury of your peers and and and the rule of common law and etc from the the background of it comes from it's your peers that are judging you and not an external higher force that **[00:08:00]** sometimes people pay more attention attention or or follow more directions compared to maybe in Mexico or Argentina, both fabulous countries, but that you just go on the street and you notice that people will not follow the the instructions of the road, right? Because of that, right? What are your thoughts on that? >> You know, I never thought about that before, whether that affects our prosperousness. I think it probably does. uh you know it certainly makes us safer as human beings you know living in America because you know if you if you let the political system work and you know I think it's probably a a universal uh point of truth at this point in time that politicians can be purchased politicians can be bought and they won't necessarily make decisions that are best for you know Joe Smith you your neighbor down the street, they're going to make decisions that are best for the corporation that is, you know, paying for their next re-election campaign and that kind of thing. And, you know, often times, as we've seen throughout history, corporations don't necessarily make decisions that are the safest decisions that are best for their consumers. They make decisions based on profit and how much profit they're going to make. You know, you saw you've seen it with Ford Motor Company. You've seen it with pharmaceutical companies, you know, there's myriad stories uh about how corporations have placed profits over people. Uh you know, but our system ultimately, you know, allows those same people to make decisions and tell corporations or doctors or other lawyers, you know, what safe means and what our community our community is going to stand for and what it's not. And it takes that decision making out of the hands **[00:10:00]** of the people who are making the money and puts it into the hands of the people who are affected. And uh and I think you know if you live in a safe place you know if you can walk out your door in the morning and not have to worry about some defective machine taking your life or you know any other number of things you know that would cause you harm along the way and instead focus your efforts on doing whatever that thing is that you've set out to do that day. Whether that's to be the best lawyer in in town or or the best dry cleaner in town, the best programmer in town, you know, you can focus your efforts on that rather than focusing your efforts on staying alive or staying unheard, you know, and I I mean, it makes sense. I I think you're you're he's probably on to something that probably does make for a more prosperous society. >> I found it very interesting and we'll see. the the book came out recently and I believe an an attorney who read it is actually helping in the outreach of the of the actual book because of of all the effects that uh he it's very interesting. I'll send you the link afterwards and and it's going to it's in the show notes in the other one as well. So you made a a comment at the beginning about the jury in civil cases versus criminal cases. So what's the difference between a criminal case and a civil case in terms of of the courts? >> It depends on what state you're in. Okay. uh you know in a criminal case you generally have to have a unanimous jury at all times and **[00:12:00]** you're you know constitutionally guaranteed a jury of 12. In a civil case depending on what state you might be in uh you know you might get a jury of six, you might get a jury of 12. Um and so the the number of jurors that are going to hear the case is going to be different and the burden of proof is different. uh you know in a criminal case it's much higher. A a prosecutor in a criminal case has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt which in theory is a really high bar you know that they have to hit. In a civil case we've got it's essentially more likely than not uh preponderance of the evidence is what we call it and it's a in theory a much lower standard. I don't know practically speaking whether juries actually, you know, enforce a difference between the two. You know, the judge certainly gives them that instruction and and they're told to to think that. I don't know if they actually do or not, but in theory, that's the big difference between the two kinds of cases is just that burden of proof. You know, what level of proof you have to show to prove your case. >> Oh, okay. So, I have a follow-up question on that. If Yeah. You know how we can get like a court summon or a jury summon? Someone can get that and then you appear and you might get chosen to be a juror or not. And so when that happens, there's both possibilities. So you might be going into a civil case or a criminal case. >> I think in most states and most courts that's the case. Uh I generally speaking, yeah, I mean on a **[00:14:00]** Monday morning, right, they pull together, you know, a 100 people or 200 people and what will happen then is these judges that are in the courthouse, you know, depending on how many there are, will call up to the clerk's office and say, "Hey, we've got a, you know, we got a trial starting. It's going to go. I need 16 jurors or I need 20 jurors to to come down." And so, yeah, at that point in time, it's kind of luck of the draw whether it's a criminal case you're getting sent to or a civil case. Uh, it could be either one. >> Interesting. Okay. Yeah, I think many people don't know because they they haven't had the the opportunity or maybe they were called but then sent back and most don't know what to expect when that happens, right? Because it's >> Yeah, it's kind of and it's ultimately a rare circumstance, you know, that actually get called and have to serve on a jury. uh you know because first you're you're getting called in if you get called in at all you know from a community of a million people you know maybe they need 200 you know and then you you come in and of that 200 they only need 40 and so that you know the odds of you getting chosen keep getting smaller and smaller and smaller and you know and ultimately if you sit on a panel you know it's still possible the judge might send you home one of the lawyers might send you home uh you know it's a very small percentage of people that actually end up serving on a jury. Uh, and a lot of people try to avoid that, but I, you know, but from **[00:16:00]** everyone I've ever talked to that's actually done it, I've never heard a negative experience. Everyone enjoys it. >> Interesting. Do Do people do it more than one? So, is there a certain pattern where even if it's that low of a likelihood, some people actually serve multiple times injuries? >> It can happen. Yeah. uh you know and if you're in a smaller community the odds of that happening are greater than if you live in a giant uh you know a city you know like Denver or Chicago or something like that. Uh so it can happen most of the time. I think most most places have a rule in place that if you get called once you can't get called for another year. >> Um but again you know with the smaller communities sometimes they don't have that luxury. >> Yeah that makes sense. So what is personal injury law exactly? Because we see it all over the billboards, we see it on commercials, we see it, etc. And for some of us, that's sort of the only thing we see, the truck in the right. So So what is it really? And is it only specific to car crashes or is it just that's the most common and easy to >> Yeah, certainly. Yeah, car crashes. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. Car crashes are the easiest cases. They're, you know, the the easiest ones to make money on. The everybody's got insurance, right? So, you're not taking money out of someone's pocket, you're taking out of an insurance company's pocket. And there's so so many dang car accidents all over the place that, you know, those kinds of cases are are plentiful. Uh, but what we do, I mean, really encompasses **[00:18:00]** a lot more than just that. I mean, we we'll take on, you know, car accidents occasionally and that kind of thing. You know, from there there's there's truck crashes as well. Well, you know, you see billboards for that kind of thing. Um, but there's medical malpractice sort of falls under that umbrella. Not a whole lot of lawyers do that kind of work. Uh, we do um because it's interesting and you know, again, it goes back to the the core of of what we do, which is, you know, protecting people, making things safer. >> Um, you know, there's slip and falls. Uh, really just I mean, we've seen everything. Uh it's amazing how many different ways there are in this world to be hurt as a result of someone else's negligence. And you know, and that's um obviously a core, maybe not obviously, but a core part of any personal injury case is that the harm that's done to you has to be done by someone else when they're being negligent. >> Right? It's it's not you, you know, hurting yourself along the way. Um you know, getting hurt as a result of something you did. That's not something I can make a case out of. Uh but if it's someone else who has done that to you. Yeah. I mean that's that's the kind of thing we look at. That's the kind of work we do. And that's what personal injury is. >> Interesting. You mentioned medical malpractice. So I think that one is an interesting one because I think this is completely my opinion but I think in in some cases people might be scared to come forward because of the system right you go to a hospital something happens you're like h you're **[00:20:00]** still you're hit with all the bills you still have to figure out how you pay all that and then plus there's something that went wrong and you don't know who to tell are you going to be able do anything? Are they going to bury you? And like I think a lot of people are afraid to come forward in those scenarios. So what do you think people should do to get better informed as to whether they might have a case or not without necessarily having to incur a ton of legal fees or or be in danger? >> Yeah, I you know I mean I I'll answer the last part of your question first. you know, in terms of not racking up a ton of legal bills. Generally speaking, the lawyers that do this kind of work will work on a what's called a contingency fee basis. Uh, you know, and that means we're not we're not asking you for a retainer. We're not sending you a bill for our time. You know, we're choosing to work on cases that we think we can be successful with. Uh, and so what that means is we're not going to charge you along the way, but at the end of the day when we are able to get some sort of a resolution for your case, you know, then that contingency fee comes out of that pile of money that we're able to get for you, you know, and it's usually a percentage, you know, somewhere between 33 and 40%, something like that. Um, but you know, and I get I get that people are intimidated by the system. they're scared, you know, especially if they've been hurt, you know, and a lot of our clients are catastrophically injured. **[00:22:00]** You know, their their lives are changed forever. And, you know, they look at what might be in front of them, you know, if they actually want to sue somebody, particularly a doctor or a hospital, and it's overwhelming, you know, it's a it's a big deal, you know, because people first don't want to sue their doctors. They don't want to sue their hospital. You know, doctors are heroes, nurses are heroes, and it's hard to imagine putting those folks into a position where, you know, we might be holding them accountable for something they did wrong for whatever reason. Um, so, you know, for those people who are intimidated, who are scared of the system, you know, or beaten down, you know, my best advice is go talk to a lawyer. you know, do a little bit of research, find somebody, you know, that you think is compatible and go talk to them. You know, have a halfhour long conversation. Uh, you know, I think most people who do this kind of work are going to be happy to have that conversation. Um, you know, so if you do that, it's going to take some of that mystique out of it and, uh, you know, make your decision making from there hopefully a little bit more informed, hopefully better. Yeah, that's that's a great point. I I think it comes down to especially when you would got hurt just like you said. You've just had that happen and you're like, uh, I don't I don't And I I just I I've never had anything like that happen, fortunately. But but yeah, yeah, here tables. But but I but I did have I mean I've had some experiences where it might have gone sour really badly and and you **[00:24:00]** notice, right? And so that's when you tell uh there's a few experiences that I've had or either for myself or or with someone else where you're in the hospital and suddenly the the doctor walks by and in this case I was with someone visiting. The doctor comes in, they're like, "Okay, ready for the operation." Like he had his thing on hand and everything and it was the wrong room. like they were about to take them to do something else. Right. And that's why they have all those extra checks and like is it the right leg? Is it the whatever? Right. Right. >> Because it happens. There was one time that um the the I had a I had I broke my my hand and I was put under right and in the ER, but I was still sort of there and I heard I was hearing all the conversation. It's fine. I was sort of there and I heard and I thought I was dreaming but the the screw there's a little tiny titanium screw that they that they put in and so I heard the doctor getting mad at the whoever assistant whoever went to get it. These are really expensive little things, right? >> Yeah. Right. >> $4,000 screw or whatever. And but that's not the big thing. He had made the hole perfectly the incision or whatever it's a micro I don't know whatever they're called. and he put it in and then it didn't screw. Like it wasn't a match. And I remember like him calling him out and being like, "What? I made the perfect hole. I have to take it again." And make a hole. Like >> And you heard all of it. >> I heard it. I thought **[00:26:00]** I was dreaming. But then when I went to my visit like a month later or whatever with the doctor, I was like, "Hey, by the way, he was like, "Whoa, you heard it." No. Yeah, it happened. They actually didn't check the screw. And so that's very minor, but you can I mean what can happen if someone's distracted in that flow, >> right? >> And so >> yeah, I I do see how how your line of work would be very helpful for for people who might be in a situation where something happened that might not be on purpose by the staff but still would be considered malpractice. Right. >> Right. And it's rare, you know, that you ever find a doctor or nurse or any medical professional who's intentionally trying to harm somebody. I mean it happens >> but it's it's a rare rare circumstance. >> Uh more often than not it's you know the same they make mistakes for the same reason that other corporations or other businesses make mistakes. Uh you know and we see it more often now with the corporatization of medicine you know where it's you know it's it's uh uh corporations running running the system rather than doctors and nurses running the system. And you know they're in it for the profits as well. And so, you know, you make more money when you go faster, when you do more in a day. And when you start asking doctors and nurses to do those kinds of things, mistakes are going to get made and people are going to get harmed as a result. It's just a natural consequence of of doing that. >> You touch on an excellent point that spreads not only to the medicine and health industry, but **[00:28:00]** also now into a lot of other industries. Just recently there was a big case with a company that I won't name specifically but they started that process of corporatization and moving everything to the call centers and got in costs and things like that and people started having accidents and the problem was that within everything that you're filling out in your disclaimers when you're going to these places it sort of says that you have to go to an arbitration what's the whatever that's No, you got the word right. It's arbitration rather than a jury trial. >> Exactly. And so I think a lot of people gets pulled into that and then if something happens like okay so this is what we give you and it's not. Can you explain a little bit how arbitration works versus other things? Because I I think I didn't know. I was I was shocked when >> Yeah. So arbitrations are they're really a private court system. Uh you know a lot of arbitrators are former judges or former lawyers. And when you sign an arbitration clause in an agreement, you are agreeing that if something bad happens, something that's lawsuit worthy, you're going to take it to that private court rather than to the district court down the street where you'd get a jury trial. Um, and in theory, it sounds like a great idea, you know, because it it reduces time to get a decision. It's in theory cheaper to do than, you know, running a whole case through a jury trial. But the problem with that is, and we see this a lot with nursing homes, uh, nursing homes love arbitration clauses. What happens is, you know, you've got a nursing home, you know, with a thousand patients **[00:30:00]** or whatever it might be, and they might ultimately have, you know, a hundred arbitrations that they're going to have to resolve. Well, the arbitrators know that the nursing home is going to have a hundred cases, but your grandmother or your great aunt or great uncle, you know, who's there is only going to have one case. And that makes the nursing home a much more valuable client. And while no one's ever going to admit to this, you know, what you see is the decisionmaking shift away from the harmed individual and over to uh the corporation or nursing home or hospital or whatever it is that is going to have a 100 cases there because they're going to keep coming back and spending more and more money. Your grandmother or your aunt or whatever isn't. And so it makes financial sense for those arbitrators to favor the corporation that's coming back next week rather than the person that they're never ever going to see again. Uh and it's, you know, it's the sad reality of it. And uh you know, and it doesn't matter. It's whether it's a nursing home or, you know, a product that you purchase that you agreed to in the in the fine print. It happens. And uh it's not always justice. >> Mhm. Yeah. It's sad. Is there something people can do about it or is it just well you sign or you don't go in and that's it? You're really not >> Yeah, I mean it's that's a great question and I don't know if there's a great answer to it, you know, because often times well a number of things. I mean when you're entering into an agreement with a corporation or a nursing home or anything, you know, you **[00:32:00]** don't have a whole lot of bargaining power as a as a single consumer. You just don't. And you know, often times you're given a contract and that contract is what it is. And sometimes it's 50 pages long and they know you're not going to read it. You know, you're not going to read it and you sign it. And buried deep inside there is that arbitration clause. Um, you know, you can I mean, the only way you can avoid that then is to not sign the agreement. And uh that's not always a realistic possibility. And and realistically when you're signing that agreement, you don't expect to ever have to exercise that arbitration clause, you know, you're not entering into an agreement thinking you are going to get hurt. Uh it's, you know, that's something that happens to everybody else. It doesn't happen to me. And you know, so for the reality is you can't get away from it. And quite frankly, people don't care at the time of signing because they don't think that's ever going to be an issue. >> Yes, I I see that. I see that. And yeah, well I mean fortunately this this other case became very big and well known and so I think there was something that could be done for all those people because there were many people affected and that couldn't come out and then could I don't know how that worked but uh I mean I mean that gives us at least hope that maybe some of those practices might be a justice because Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think when when those kinds of things are brought to light, you know, when people understand what it really means, that's when change gets made, you know, and **[00:34:00]** uh and we don't have to rely on those or, you know, you change hearts at the corporate level and they're saying, "Okay, fine. You know, do do a jury trial if you want, take us take us to court if you want. We're not going to hold you to it." >> And you mentioned something very interesting, too, which is the length of the contract. So >> outside in whatever space you have a contract it's long regular people like myself I don't understand much of the legal jargon and what's this so what's your thought on not using it to create or draft but using LLMs chpt claude those types of things as a consumer to perhaps get a better understanding of a big document that they sent you. Yeah, I think I think LLMs and you know whether it's Claude or ChatgBT, it's an amazing tool for those kinds of things. You know, if you're able to take that that agreement and upload it and just have a conversation with those things and, you know, and say, "What does this mean?" You know, break this down into layman's terms for me. You know, give me 10 bullet points as to what I'm agreeing to. Uh it's huge. It's it's taking so much power, you know, assuming people are willing to exercise it. they're taking so much power away from the lawyers and the corporations that have created that document, you know, and bringing it back to themselves and uh and truly getting an understanding of what it is that they're agreeing to hopefully. Um but yeah, I I think that those tools are amazing for that kind of thing. and you know and we're just at you know obviously as you know just in the infancy of **[00:36:00]** that technology. Uh I I think it's going to restore a great deal of power back in the consumer and uh citizens. >> I agree. I think many people can can take your advice here and not only ask it to tell it to you in layman's terms but talk to the document like you're saying like actually just put it up there and then ask it questions like what does this mean? What is this compared to this other thing? I found myself one day a potential client of ours sent their agreement, a non-disclosure type agreement. And sometimes we do those for specific industries and things that are more >> we typically have a a type of agreement that's for both sides, right? And this one, I don't know, it felt odd just by reading it. It felt a little one-sided. So, I put it into one of these, just out of and not only did it explain it, but then it went further to actually say this looks a little bit one-sided, like it looks like they're they're using this to be able to enforce this, this, and this other thing, which is not typical in an agreement of this type. And I found that to be very helpful because I mean, how would one know, >> especially if one doesn't understand the legal jargon associated? >> Yeah. Because historically, it's been lawyers who write those agreements up and they're certainly not writing it for our benefit. They're writing it for the benefit of their client. And uh, you know, and they make it opaque. They make it long. It's all, you know, it's intentionally done >> so that you don't understand what it is that you're doing. You know, it's like, you know, the Apple user **[00:38:00]** agreement. You know, every time you get a software update, no one's going to read that whole dang thing. Uh, and they know it, but it's there to protect them. It's not there to protect you. >> So, it is true then we that people they're intentionally complex. It's not that you have to make a legal document confusing. >> Yeah, that I think that's that is exactly correct. uh you know, no one's ever going to admit to that, but yeah, I think uh I think there is a lot of intentionality in it. And quite frankly, I mean, you get more than one lawyer involved in something and they're going to make it longer. They're going to make it long more complex, you know, cuz we're we're trained to look into the future and think, "Oh my gosh, how many different things could go wrong?" And then, you know, we come up with this list of 50 things that could go wrong and then we write a contract clause to address every single one of them. You know, no matter how remote the possibility might be and, you know, and then another lawyer gets a hold of that one and thinks of something else and adds more and uh it goes on and on and on. It's rare that you find an agreement that's just broken down in a layman's terms and it's one page long. It's just rare that it ever happens. We dang lawyers get involved and screw everything up. There's Yeah. Well, unfortunately, there's there's some companies that start helping out. For example, in our space, the software web development application sort of space, >> there's a there's a thing called privacy, right? And so when you have a website, you have to disclose if **[00:40:00]** you're using cookies that might be from a third party. And and that sort of came about because of some privacy issues. But in my opinion to be it got taken to a little bit to an extreme. So now every website has to have a banner that has say that you're using >> down at the bottom. Yeah. >> Down at the bottom. Yeah. And so >> for you to do it properly and I'm not an attorney have to disclose that. But for you to do it properly, you actually have to disclose the cookies what they're used for and then you have to have an option that if they actually say no, you stop those cooking from rendering or doing their thing. It's not just a yes no thing. you have to actually stop them from from doing or capturing the data because some of this data is captured upon page load. >> So if you have a Google Maps frame or whatever things like that. So so there's tools that allow you to do that automatically as a business owner like Termagon is one of them. I've had them on the podcast. They >> they sort of give you a form very long form that you fill out and and tell it what services you use etc. And then it builds out those privacy policy, cookie policies and all that good stuff. and the little banner, but a but a legit banner that actually turns off the services and things like that. But most people don't know that. And so it becomes >> I didn't know that until just now. >> Yeah, it becomes an issue because then people get sued because their website was capturing their information and it's just lawyers that are just trying **[00:42:00]** to get at a quick buck by saying, "Hey, you've in California, you have my information, blah blah blah, and you're not doing it right." And so they they get these lawsuits and it's terrible. So companies like Termaga and others are fortunately helping out giving us consumers a way to like we were saying to make maybe it easier for us to follow whatever the the rules or guidelines are because because it's hard enough for you who are in it to understand everything that's changing and and evolving and new laws being added and things like that. And where does that leave the consumer? Right. >> Yeah. in a in a bad spot because, you know, the average consumer, myself included, I don't know what that stuff means. Uh, and I think it's rare that you find anybody that does who doesn't work in that space already and have sort of an intimate knowledge of it. Um, you know, but that's where, you know, lawyers come in handy sometimes. You know, obviously the system can be abused. Uh but at the same time, you know, it's it's private lawsuits that most often make the biggest difference in safety and privacy, you know, and things like that because there isn't, you know, a government agency that's going to enforce that. There's, you know, the police station down the street is not going to enforce, you know, whatever regulation it is that keeps your information private. U so, you know, oftentimes it falls on the shoulders of the private legal system to What is it about the fees that then that got people I think it swung right back and forth. So before you would see these billboards and they would be like 5 billion collect well they would used **[00:44:00]** to be lower right before it be like 10 million 20 million now like 1 billion they grow right and you see these and that was common place but then it started saying paid to clients right because people then started saying oh yeah yeah you're billing that but how much is the person getting they're getting 1% or what right so when we see that we have those ideas Of course, they're they're they're just assumptions that people make based on false or inaccurate data. So, what should the consumer know about these types of things? Is it really a huge percentage for the law office or is it more towards the client or does it vary by who's doing it or by type? >> That is a a complex answer to that to that question. I mean, I think consumers need to be as sophisticated as they can be when it comes to hiring a lawyer. Uh, and not necessarily just hire a lawyer based on some number that's slapped on a billboard, right? Because you do see that all the time, you know, and you're right. And now the numbers, you know, potentially in the billions, you know, that someone's collected on behalf of their clients. Um, or, you know, got a billion dollar verdict. uh you know and there's always a story behind those numbers. you know, it's I think it's probably pretty rare that that number is an accurate representation of, you know, what we think in our minds anyway when we see that. Um, you know, so I guess I would encourage anybody who's going to talk to a lawyer, hire a lawyer to look beyond the marketing message, you know, look beyond that number and actually talk to a lawyer, you know, find **[00:46:00]** out what that person's like. And my number one piece of advice to people who are thinking about hiring a lawyer or working to find somebody is find someone you like and find someone you trust because you're you're diving into something that is not going to be done in a week or a month or even several months. More likely than not, you know, you're in for an adventure that's going to last a year, maybe two years, maybe a decade. And if you are walking down that road with someone you don't like or you don't trust, it's going to make that journey really, really hard. Um, so I always encourage folks to to reach out, talk to more than one lawyer. You know, don't just see the number on the billboard, call it up, and then, you know, sign an agreement. That's the easy way to do it. I get it. I understand why people do it. You know, it's one less thing to worry about. Uh but that is also how folks end up in bed with somebody who uh who doesn't necessarily want to represent their interests. Uh who isn't a good fit, who doesn't know the kind of law that they need them to know. Um you know, so I I I just tell everyone to take their time, you know, talk to people, get to know them, and uh you know, understand exactly what it is that you're looking at before you sign that sign that agreement. >> That's excellent advice. I I don't I don't think many people realize that when they're going into it. And I you brought up a very good point, which is the expertise. They might be very good at a specific type of case, but maybe they're **[00:48:00]** not good at all at the type of cases that that you need. >> Yeah. I And that's true. I mean, it's it's probably true for every industry, right? I mean there's people who are specialists in one thing and not specialist don't specialize in another. Um but you have to be wary of that person who you know will still take on that work you know without being a specialist because they might see a paycheck sometime down the road. Um so yeah it's it's always important to ask about that particular case because a car accident is different than a medical malpractice case is different than an aviation accident case. you know, they're all different and uh every lawyer's experience level and knowledge of those differences is different. And quite frankly, I mean, being a as a lawyer, you know, not knowing exactly how a particular case is going to run is dangerous because I might not know, you know, all the pitfalls along the way, the different, you know, nuances of the law or the rules governing those cases, you know, and that can be devastating for a case if I miss something along the way because I just didn't know. And and again, yeah, you gave good advice there because it does apply to every industry. When you see someone just taking on the work be just just even if they don't seem like an expert, you see the exact opposite. I think it's easier to see the exact opposite. When someone doesn't need the work, they will say no. >> Right? When when when they're at a spot, when they're so good that they know their stuff and they have enough work, like they don't need that specific one to eat, for example. they they **[00:50:00]** will say no because they know they might not do an excellent job on it. And so if you're on the other side of this and go with someone and they might just do it because they're just racking up billing for their firm that that could be >> dangerous. It's dangerous. Yeah. It's dangerous for the the consumer. It's dangerous for the professional who's or providing that service. But I think you see it everywhere. I mean it's just you know it's the nature of our system. Yeah. What is the how do I say this? The there's this idea I think some people have of if I have a party at my house or there's someone doing work at the house like how much should I be scared of something happening at that party for someone and then does my home insurance take care of that? Do I need something else? If a worker comes in, should I let them in or not? Unless they have their own type of thing that they show to me in paper. Like, h how does one just as a regular person deal with these things? The absolute easiest way to deal with those kinds of things is to get insurance. you know, whether that's homeowners insurance or renters's insurance, you know, something that's going to cover you in the event that, you know, something bad happens and you're deemed to be at fault. Um, you know, our system is based on reasonleness, you know, and that's anytime you're you're talking about the civil legal system, when it comes to doing what I do, it's all based on reasonableness. You know, is what Armando did reasonable under those circumstances? was he reasonably careful under those circumstances? You know, and so if you're **[00:52:00]** acting like a reasonable person, you're taking measures to be careful, you know, odds are pretty good you're going to protect yourself. Um, you know, it's when you're not being careful, you know, it's when you're, you know, you're having a giant bonfire in the backyard with a bunch of drunken friends. You know, those kinds of situations could get you in trouble along the way. Um, but you know that's having insurance then helps you cover for that unreasonleness that you might engage in, you know, along the way. Uh, the worker at your house is a different situation. Uh, you know, I would I would encourage anytime you're going to hire somebody, an independent contractor to come work on your house, make sure that they've got their own insurance. uh because if they don't, you could end up being on the hook for something that they do along the way. Uh and that's another nichy piece of the law alto together. But uh something to be aware of for sure >> because there's two sides of it, right? It's what they could do to your property that then you have to pay for if they don't have a way to cover it, but then it's the other side of if they get hurt doing what they're doing wrong. >> Yeah. And that's the more dangerous side of it, right? If someone falls from a ladder, you know, and then suffers life-changing inj injuries, you don't want to be on the hook for that be simply because someone didn't have the right workers comp insurance that they should have had. Uh so it's always a good idea to ask and make sure that uh any independent contractor like roofer, a painter, anybody is covered before they start working on **[00:54:00]** your home. >> Oh, that's good. That's good advice. What What should people ask service providers for? I I just ask them, "You got work comp insurance?" >> Work comp. That's the question you ask. And uh if they've got it, they're covered. You're good to go. If they don't, uh you should probably find another contractor. >> That's excellent advice. I I think we all just want to be protected >> from all angles, right? like from the homeowner, from the renter, from the business owner actually, right? So, >> what is the what should a business do owner be thinking about when starting a business or even if you've had a business for a long time? >> There are people like you that go on these cases for people that might have had a problem, right? So, how does a business owner make sure they're following the rules or are protected so that if something happens to someone and they they are at fault or could be at fault that they're protected and don't get go under because of that? >> Yeah. I Well, I mean, first first and foremost again, you know, buy insurance, you know, and get a reasonable amount of insurance. Don't, you know, just go purchase $25,000 policy because that's the smallest one you can find. You know, figure out, you know, as a business owner, it I mean, you sort of look into the future and think, okay, if this goes wrong, you know, what could possibly happen? What are the the reason, you know, realistically the outcomes of that? And buy enough insurance to cover that. And and once you've got that, you know, then in terms of the way you behave and act in the world, you know, know the regulations, **[00:56:00]** know the rules, um make checklists for yourself when you're doing things, you know, the way doctors sometimes, surgeons sometimes do, you know, you know, they they write, you know, this is the leg to cut. Uh you know, and things like that. And that's going to prevent mistakes. And you know, mistakes are the reasons people get hurt. And so if you're, you know, if you know the regulations, you know the rules, you know how to create a checklist to make sure you're covering everything, you know, those are the kinds of things any business owner, no matter what business they might be in, can protect themselves. And if that's all documented, uh, that's good evidence of reasonleness along the way, you know, and in the rare event that someone like that gets sued, they are going to have the documents to back up the reasons they did the things they did. Um, and that's really what you know, and it's it's just a matter of, you know, instead of thinking about how much money am I going to make on this, how small can I, you know, uh, make my costs and how big can I make my profits, just think, you know, how how would you want your family treated? How do you want your neighbor treated? And treat your clients like that. And I think if more businesses, no matter what business they're in, thought like that rather than solely thinking about the bottom line, you'd put people like me out of work. And I would happily go find something else to do if that were the case. >> That's amazing advice, Sean. I I think you're going to give people quite a bit of peace of mind with what we've talked about today. There's **[00:58:00]** there's the whole being prepared aspect of it. Then the doing the checklist for example, knowing the regulations, getting insurance, right? But most importantly for situations like accidents, malpractice, and things like that, talking to multiple potential attorneys or firms and getting out there, preparing yourself as a consumer so that it's not just, yeah, I'm just going to go with the first one. It's harder to do, but man, it's so helpful. >> Yeah. Especially for the long run because you said something very important, which is the case might take weeks, months, years, right? And first of all, we don't expect that. But second of all, okay, now we know that being both with someone that you like and trust, but that is going to be there, right? Right? Cuz if it's some like this just new outfit out there, I mean, obviously people have to start somewhere, but depending on the I guess severity of your case, you might want to consider, okay, do I want someone more experienced? How will they be there by the time my case is is the same happens for insurance, right? >> Um, so I think I have an a follow-up question here for that. The the fee structure, right? So talking about the same thing, if I see, oh, maybe you're not going to bill me if you don't win, right? Or things like that. So how do I as a consumer then trust you enough to say, well, we're going to be in this together for a few months, how do I trust that you're actually going to be paying the right attention to it? If maybe something bigger comes along, and this is just like h small beans on the side, right? >> Right. Well, and again, that **[01:00:00]** comes down to finding the right person for the job. uh you know we obs here at our firm we obsess over the customer experience uh it's something that I think is important it's it's the reason we're here right we're a service-based industry and uh you know so part of that part of that client experience that we create is making sure that we're in touch with our clients every single month you know making sure they understand what's going on with their case even when there's nothing going on and that will happen. You know, there's going to be months that go by when there's nothing to report, but we report in anyway to let them know nothing is happening. Um, and so I think for anybody to to protect themselves against that, you know, is to find out what that firm is all about, find out what that lawyer is all about, uh, in terms of that communication and, uh, keeping their case front of mind because it happens. you know you the billboard lawyers and tight TV lawyers and things like that you know those some of those firms you know will take on a thousand clients you know and you know when you've got that many clients you know the time that you have to devote to any one case is limited right there's only so much time in a day and a week and a year and you know it's important for clients to ask those kinds of questions you know how many how many cases do you take on every year how cases do you have in house right now? Are you going to have time to work on my case? You know, have those conversations. They're difficult questions to ask, you know, **[01:02:00]** especially if you're walking into a conversation and you're already intimidated. Uh but they're so important to ask. Uh they really are. And you know, if you've got a lawyer that you're on that's on the other end of the line who's not willing to answer those questions, that is not a lawyer who's worth hiring. >> Wow. That that's excellent. And also keep in mind for this for the listeners, if you see the person on the billboard, you're very likely not going to get the person on the billboard actually doing the work. Is that >> good? There's a good solid chance of that. Yeah. Odds are good that is not going to be the case, right? You're going to get another lawyer at the firm who's going to work on that case and you're never going to talk to that guy on the billboard. And so I think for example in in your when I was looking through your website and things that I see you have a video that pops up and of you and it's very personalized and I saw what you're saying now I I see you >> walk the talk right um it's good it's good nowadays we're we're in this big wave of content right it's a content era where where people have to show it's not only the the billboard now or the advertisement to show people what you're doing what you're all about and the all the personal side of it. And I think that's something that many businesses lack in general, but that it's coming along and people are starting to get the hang of it. So, I'm glad you are doing in your firm these things because at the end of the day, whether people hire you or **[01:04:00]** not, you're doing a service to the community just by sharing that information that you're sharing. >> I hope so. Yeah, I hope you're right about that. You know, and those and that that stuff takes a long time. I mean, that's the reason why I think a lot of law firms, probably a lot of businesses don't do it because it takes time and it takes effort. You know, it's not something that I'm going to see a return on tomorrow or maybe even next year or maybe even the next decade. You know, it's it's longterm. And uh you know like I said you know if people become educated and businesses and corporations and insurance companies start doing what they should do rather than what the bottom line demands they do. They're going to put me out of business and I like I said I will happily go find something else to do because that will mean we're living in a in a much safer place. >> That's amazing Sean. Well thank you so much for coming on the show today. It has been a pleasure. And where can people find you and your company so that uh in case somebody needs some of your work they can get to? >> Easiest way to find us is our through our website protectingthewest.com. Uh that's what we do. You know, it's sort of sort of our our mantra and what we live by here. So that's the easiest way to find us. And you know, whether it's a question about something we can handle or take on or not, we're always happy to take the time uh to answer questions and help people out. And uh you know, my my mantra is we we make sure everybody who calls **[01:06:00]** in or walks in leaves in a better position than they were before they made that call or before they walked into the office. Uh so that's something we always strive to do. >> That's amazing. I'll put that in the show notes so people can find you. And again, thank you so much for joining us today and we'll see you in the next one. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks.