Why car dealers compete with dealers of their own brand

**[00:00:00]** Hello everyone, and welcome to the Web Talk Show. My name is Armando Perez Carreno, and with us today is Todd Catchers, CPO at Sony Digital Signage. Hello Todd, how are you? >> I'm good, Armando. Good to see you. >> Yeah, likewise. Can you tell us a little bit more about Zوني, and then also how you got into this space? >> So, Zوني is one of many companies that we manage here, and it is specifically designed to be a digital sign company for enterprises, people who want to whether it's a a local restaurant, retailer, bar, restaurant, any there's digital signs everywhere. But, we really designed the program for the enterprise level customer who wants to build a platform on top of our technology. So, they have they don't have to worry about managing software, they could run a business instead. So, it came about really where we have a sister company, Digital Dealership System, that would has digital signs and leaderboards for the automotive industry, that's about 15 years old. And as that company grew, our needs for digital signage platform changed as well. And we were using a program that had a lot of plugins for it. So, if you wanted video, then you'd use a local video player in in Windows or in your media player that would then you would call that program. And then if you wanted to have some other software or you or like database software or something other plugins to use technology to make that sign operate, you could call programs within the actual application on the on the computer itself. We as we grew, that just became cumbersome cuz now we're not only updating the software, and let's say Windows drivers or the media player drivers, but now we have to worry about conflicts between different solutions in the computer as well, because it wasn't a holistic solution. It allowed us to be custom-customization, but customization through multiple apps **[00:02:00]** as opposed to all within one. So, we couldn't find an application that met our needs. We have over 1,000 dealerships across the country with digital dealership systems. Some dealerships have one screen and some have 50 screens. So, we manage a lot of content for them, updates from the manufacturers, a lot of video, and we needed a way to provide that across the network. But then also, we had needs to make it so that way it was white labeled. We didn't want people to know the underlying software, so our customers can log in and have an easy-to-use experience. So, about 5 years ago, we started creating Zoni for ourselves. But as part of that process, we decided to go ahead and make it available for everybody. So, Zoni digital signage was built for digital dealership system originally, but now it's available for everybody. So, there's 150 apps built into it. There's that we built natively. There's the ability for an enterprise customer to have a white-label service so that way they could run their business. And everything is is extremely granular. They could choose the users and define things. They could set their own profiles and their own templates. So, no one even knows what that Zoni even exists underneath their own structure. >> Oh, wow. Okay. Let's dive into it a little bit. So, you talk about all these screens for signage within, let's say, the automotive industry. So, I'm very curious. What do these screens show? Like, what what do people see on the screen in the showroom? >> Yeah, so what we say is that based on your customer journey. So, whenever you walk into any retail place or any venue, you have a customer journey. So, we want to set up different signs and different layouts and different designs and content based on where somebody is in in that journey. So, when you think about like a car dealership, there's two ways that people enter a car dealership, either through the service side to get their vehicle serviced. So, what messaging do you want to see there, right? So, you want to see your service pricing, maybe some upsell opportunities, maybe some finance programs, maybe dare to compare, maybe **[00:04:00]** your service status integrated with the back-end system of the dealership. So, that type of information. And then, if you think about going through the front door and you're trying to create sales, dealerships are unique where you have the same brand competing against the same brand in the same market. So, you might be in an area that has multiple Toyota stores within within a half hour or an hour drive. And they're all competing against each other, but they're also on the same car that they purchased for the same price. So, it's the only industry where they actually the franchises actually compete against each other and market on their own. So, from the sales side, the dealership wants to have a unique buying experience and digital sign provides that. And then, you go to the lounge area and then you have people who are waiting for service or waiting for finance. While they're in the lounge area, why would they show competitors ads on the TV in the lounge? Or, why would they want to show news or or inappropriate content for families because someone wants to watch something that may be too violent or maybe too um you know, polarizing, you know, that people get offended very easily these days. So, how can we show content that's family-friendly and motivational while promoting the brand itself? And then, on the back end of car dealerships, we offer a leaderboards to motivate their team. So, in most sales organizations, you have like a dry erase board to track sales. Well, in dealerships, when you're doing the volume that they do and have all the different variables that are there for sales or for service, then we track that and connect with your DMS and so we're showing different information on each. But, when you think about [snorts] like I always go to the Vegas experience or the casino experience or think about the last concert you went to. And and the as you walk through the the venue, they might have different messaging. For instance, it might be directional. Check in here or welcome, you know, those types of messages. But then once you're in the venue, their goal is to keep you there by promoting their services that they have. In Vegas, it might be the **[00:06:00]** shows they have or it might be the dining establishments that they have there. Or let's say you're a retailer and so you you're you're in a you're in a restaurant or assuming you're in a a mall situation. And you're like, "Hey, what what's the what do you have that's available for what if you're in a restaurant or you're in a mall situation?" And you're like, "How do you get people into your actual store?" Then once they're there, what messaging do you want to show there? So all those different variables come into play. >> Oh, wow. Okay. Yes, that makes sense. I I recognize seeing the signs, right? And especially like hotels or resorts, that sort of thing. You go in and then they have all the things. And you're there, you're waiting and you're like, "Oh, okay, there's there's uh whoever is coming to to here in March, so maybe I'll consider it, right?" >> Exactly. Or maybe you go to a venue and you're you're going to one concert and then there's another they have their schedule of upcoming shows or they have a QR code to go ahead and buy tickets or in their, you know, where you might buy drinks or snacks or things like that, they'll have pricing up there. And so what digital sign does is allow you to go ahead and manage that remotely. Uh so that way you don't have to go hook up a USB stick to every single system and then it just provides a more professional display because you get multiple zones and and it and at the same time that's brand specific for you. >> Okay. Yeah, that's really neat. And also, it's not just like customer facing, like you were saying, it also within within the service area, within the shop, within for for the sales area. Like I expect you could also use it in uh in the base, right? Like for the mechanics and things and and just have them also and gamify that experience if you wanted to. >> Exactly. So, like if you think of any sales organization, or let's say you had appointments coming in. Um you were um I'm trying to think of other restaurant like a restaurant, and you want to show, "Hey, these are the people who have reservations coming up." We could connect with uh Zoni can connect with point of sale system. So, now you could **[00:08:00]** go ahead and change pricing in your point of sale, and your digital sign automatically follows those price changes. Um if you have uh let's say you had images in your point of sale system for what the products and services look like, because all these point of sale systems for for restaurants now also power their website. So, if you want to put pictures up of food, or you want to go and now you can have digital signs that pull the same information, so you're not programming multiple things at the same time. It makes it very easy. And then if you think about that, imagine if you're um a franchise of like let's say Dunkin' Donuts, and you want to make a price change. Well, you don't have to log into every single PC to make the price change. You could do it once, and you could update regionally, or update per store, and it makes it very easy to go ahead and manage a system. And then you have a console that shows you what's online, what's offline, what status they are, and you could really manage a whole enterprise from one interface. And that's kind of what Zoni is about. >> Oh, very nice. Now, talking about signage for franchises I think is a is a good example. So, sometimes you go to one franchise, and it it has a layout, and depending on the type of franchise it'll be exactly they're all the same, right? And some of them have their differences, right? But I had this question the other day. We we were visiting El Paso, and there was this Chick-fil-A. And they had the screens, and then one of them had some things like in English and Spanish, and just messages, right? And the the message on it one of them in Spanish was improperly translated. Okay. It was And And so so I I told the manager, and and he was like, "Oh, yeah, let me let me uh work on that." And and he went away, right? So, my question there was like, "Okay, so I expect then it's a system that they have access to internally for that specific location, and it's not like a corporate thing where corporate made a mistake, and then all of them had had the issue, right? >> it depends. So, it depends on how they set that up. So, like when we're when **[00:10:00]** we're working with So, like with with digital dealership system, uh we have we might have a group of stores that have one login for their whole group, so that corporate can manage their like five stores, let's say. So, you have one owner over five stores. And they may push the same content out to every store, but then each store might have their own additional content. So, you're thinking of like buckets of content, right? So, you have like corporate content, and then you have local content, then you have store-specific content. So, with with Zoni, we wanted to be able to support that by having multiple layers of access. So, you could have that corporate structure of let's say all the Chevy content. And then you have a regional content specific to that dealer group, let's say. And then you have content specific to that store that may have special specific to that particular brand, or let's say they have staff or testimonials from that store specifically, or they have employee of the month or employee recognition program specific to that store. So, depending on the franchise, they may have access to certain modules, and then they also have then corporate has access to other ones that they don't have that the store doesn't have access to. So, depending on the software program they're using, they may be independent franchises well, and in that case, when you most times when you have franchises, they have some corporate structure that says what you're allowed and what you're not allowed. And then you have other corporate that allows each store to have some sort of level of independence. Uh car The car dealership world allows a significant amount of independence on the dealership within the certain parameters. So, when they go buy furniture, they have to go about They They could choose like two different types of furniture. They don't have like They can't go to the regular store and buy it. But, if they want to put something up on their TV, they want to use this type of marketing or that type of marketing, the manufacturer normally doesn't care about that type of stuff. Now, if you walk into a Dunkin' Donuts, it's extremely locked down. They They **[00:12:00]** You can't It It It is what it is for that particular region, and then they have their national programs as well. So, depending on the franchise, you're always going to have different aspects based on their business structure. >> Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, well, the the dealership industry is is very interesting because it's it's something that we sort of take for granted cuz that every car manufacturer worked via dealership now until Tesla came along, right? But But in general, it's like they all have dealerships, and you just sort of accept that. And it it the thing that you mentioned at the beginning is true. I remember when we were looking for for a car for a relative a few years ago, they want I don't remember if we were looking at Subaru or Honda or something. And and it was very confusing because there were like one here, and then there's another one 7 mi the other way. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And like which one do you go to? And you have to check reviews and see what people say. And then the prices are different, and then some disc some some of them negotiate, and then some are like, "No, this this is the fixed price." You are like, "How is so different?" So, I I always wonder like how how how much does the actual manufacturer of the vehicles, like like a Ford or a GMC, have say in the the whole thing? Or is it just like they get a license? How Do you know how that how that all works? >> Yeah, I mean, we could we could spend we can spend hours just talking about that, but in brief, so franchise laws require them to purchase everything at the same price, but what they don't do is back-end incentives. So, if you sell a certain volume or let's say your facility looks a certain way, as as as you let's say you're going to different Ford stores, and if you drive by five Ford stores, why do they all look different? Some look newer, some look older. So, the newer ones might have incentives on the back-end for being in compliance of the most recent version of what the store looks like. And the older store didn't spend the $10 **[00:14:00]** million to renovate their store, they have a certain amount of time, but once they do, then they get those back-end incentives as well. They have a a compliance list, right? So, imagine like, okay, we're going to sell you this car and I'll just make up a number. We're going to sell you the car for $10,000. You can sell the car that the the number is there's a there's a that everybody buys a car for the same amount. You can sell the car for whatever you want. You can finance it with whatever programs you want to finance it on. >> Mhm. >> But, based on the volume that you sell, based on compliance for your facility and for other metrics as well, based on your volume, you get back-end incentives, call it kickbacks if you will, for being a better store than another store. So, that store that has that might make more money on the back-end, they may sell their vehicles for less because they're making more money from the manufacturer on a kickback or incentive or rebate or something like that. So, the law says the franchise law says they all have to buy the car the same, but then they have to rationalize, okay, well, you sell 1,000 cars a month and this guy sells 100 cars a month, so you're in a different level of back-end incentives, but you all buy the car for the same price. Now, the net at the end of the day is different because the incentives pay back, so they may sell the car for less in order because they know they're going to make more money on the back end. That's why it when people going to buy cars at the end of the year, those dealers are looking at they have a they have their goal as well, right? And that goal says, "Okay, if I'm if let's say I'm at and I'll just make this up. I'm at 1,000 cars for the year, and if I get to 1,200, I get an extra $500 for every car that I sell." Or there's a thing called allocation, where based on your previous history, they allocate a certain number of vehicles or you can't get any more after that. >> Oh. >> So, based on So, they So, the more you **[00:16:00]** sell, the more they'll give you to sell the next year. >> Mhm. >> And every not only every car, but every dealership and every model has a certain level of allocation for that particular brand, and that changes for everyone. So, it's very very different and it's it's a it's a extremely unique industry. Consider the difference between a uh an automotive franchise and a McDonald's or a Taco Bell, >> Mhm. >> right? They're independently owned. They have their criteria for what the store looks like, but they have different restrictions on what that store is going to have in it. Like McDonald's when you walk into a McDonald's, that everything should look exactly the same inside. Of course, you can have different sizes a little bit, but they need to have based on their volume, they need to have a couple of those touchscreen kiosks that have that's digital they need to have the screens above, that's digital signs. They need to have a certain point of sale system, and they all buy their material from the main from the manufacturer McDonald's at the same price. >> Mhm. >> Right? So, then but then they don't compete against each other. So, the McDonald's on Second Street doesn't compete against a McDonald's on on Main Street, let's say. >> Okay. >> Uh so, in the automotive industry, like you your experience, they may be 5 mi apart from each other and competing and advertising saying uh on on their own. Plus, you have corporate advertising. So, you mentioned Ford. So, Ford's going to put out a commercial for the a national commercial, but that's not going to drive sales to that to one particular store. They don't care where you buy it as long as you Ford is competing against Toyota, right? But, the Ford store, ABC Ford, is competing against XYZ Ford for the same car that they bought the same price. The individual dealer is not competing against a Toyota because they don't manufacture the product, right? So, it's just a completely different industry. I have not found I've asked I've not found **[00:18:00]** another industry that is a franchise model where you compete against the same franchise in the same market. >> That's very interesting. I had never heard it put that way where where the dealer is not competing against the other brand. They're they're actually competing against each other. A lot of things came to my mind as you were talking because there's the part where yes, it's a franchise. Yes, they're selling whatever you want to call it, but they're selling the vehicle that the manufacturer sells. They get it at the same price they sell it, but then at the end of the day, apart from being, let's call it a franchisee, they are also like referral-based business or rep-based business in the sense that they get kickback back behind the scenes when certain thresholds are met and things like that. Which is very interesting and it and it sort of starts to put things into perspective when when a specific salesman or woman wants to sell you like they're they're sort of pushing one specific vehicle, like one specific one that they have there and it might have been because it's been on the lot for a long time. But sometimes it's not. It's just that maybe that one will put them over that threshold and it will make more money for them. In the back end. >> Yes, there are lots of different incentives. There's even incentives for how well your experience was which is called CSI customer service index. They'll get a they'll get a survey for service and for sales on your experience from a third party and that that is a huge bonus for the dealership and that's a because they want it where they want to go ahead and rate how good your experience was with that brand and that salesperson and that experience in the store. And so that's that dealership is is often times bonus based on CSI. So a store that has a low customer service but sells a lot of cars actually makes less money than somebody **[00:20:00]** who has a higher service and sells less cars because that the the brand wants to be seen in a positive light. And if you give people a bad experience but sell a lot of cars, it's it's you know the if all your reviews are bad let's say but yet you still sell a lot of cars, then the manufacturer looks down on that. So these are all different types of things and there's bonuses for service and there's bonuses for sales and and they do overlap. So and there's there's a lot of incentives for for dealerships to meet those guidelines which is different. So if you're looking at a regular restaurant like we said like the like a McDonald's or they don't have that flexibility. So who do they really answer to if they meet the criteria where they have no flexibility whether you meet it or not, they really are are beholden to like the health inspector. Because that's something that's up to the individual franchisee to make sure their store is clean and up to code. That's that so they're beholden to that because they don't have any other flexibility. Like they have to make the food the same way every time and that's something that they're just trained to do and I'm sure they have secret shoppers to make sure that the quality is there, but make sure you're cooking your fries the right amount of time or you're putting the right amount of pickles on your burger. You know, I don't know that that industry very well, but I'm making that stuff up just by my experience and so like okay, well [snorts] what does it when I order something, how long does it take and they monitor that internally. So but they're not looking at it from the same level of all those different uh criteria that a car dealership would because car dealerships have a lot more flexibility to run their business within the franchise. Whereas those other franchises don't have that same flexibility. So they want to put out a product that needs to be made, but when you take a car from let's say if you you mentioned Ford, so we'll stick with Ford. Like that car was delivered from the manufacturer, right? So there shouldn't need anything before to **[00:22:00]** deliver that car more than just being cleaned up, right? So the and then and what you were mentioning before called old age vehicles. So they want to have a churn, right? Of vehicles and they have a financial incentive for their financial program called a floor plan that when they how can they afford so many cars in their inventory? Well, they normally don't pay for the the vehicle until it's on the lot for 90 days and that's up to their floor plan financing. So if they have cars on the lot for a long period of time, they're paying financing just to keep the car on the lot. >> Yes. >> So they're concerned about their churn, right? So how long their average age of vehicle is before they have to move that vehicle off and then they'll reduce the price because let's say they're spending $500 a month for financing that vehicle on their in their inventory. Well, I'd rather sell it to you for $500 less >> Mhm. >> than keep it on my lot for longer. So if you buy this car, it's still a but we've had it for for for 6 months now, and it's some weird color or there's some reason why or it's not a desirable model or desirable trim or whatever that is. So, there's lots of different variables in there. >> Wow. Yeah, well, it makes sense. And so, trying to gather all this, they can make money on just the regular sale, but this seems to be just the the the least interesting, right? It's just like they just sell the car, whatever they make a profit, right? And then, [clears throat] after that, they might get incentives and kickbacks and and allocation, right? >> Yes. >> But then, they can also make money on financing >> Correct. >> locally. And then, they can also make money on accessories and things that they add on top of what they receive from the manufacturer, right? >> Yes, and then the trade-ins and things like that. Yeah, it's a super interesting business cuz there's lots of uh lots of variables involved in the actual bottom line P&L statement that is extremely long cuz there's a lot of different aspects of it, and the time of **[00:24:00]** that is different because you may get like a refund [snorts] for warranty service 6 months after or a refund on on a on on some sort of a finance program down the road. So, you have to take care of that. You have to There's a float of sometimes 60 or 90 days until you get money back. So, it's not like you just open the doors and start getting money because there's finances, checks, there's transfers, there's all these different types of of money that has to flow through over periods of time coming from different areas. And like extend like thinking about like finance programs like extended warranties or tire and wheel and all that stuff. So, you know, when you get to things like uh from the layman's though, like when you're shopping for a car, they don't think about all that, but what you want them to do with uh technology like digital signs is really focus on what makes that store better so that way you that you keep that business in house and they don't go to the other store down the road. So, they're able to go ahead and it within the parameters of the franchise create a unique buying experience or service experience that separate themselves from the competition, which is just 15 or 20 minutes down the road. So as you buy your you mentioned a Subaru or a Honda, you could buy it somewhere and you get it serviced somewhere else. >> Mhm. >> And what makes you go back to the place to service is based on the experience that they provide you. And if you have multiple options and competition that's a good thing for the consumer, but then from an owner or a dealer, how do they go ahead and raise the bar in order to maximize the profits of everybody who comes in the store or increase their closing ratios or increase their service revenue. And that's really what what our systems do with the digital signs. >> Nice. Yeah, okay. Yeah, what when you mentioned having the the signage like in the waiting area. >> Mhm. >> I I I thought of something that recently happened. Which makes sense because yes, you you wait in some and they just have TV like in a hotel, right? Either they they just it's just the news, it's just whatever. >> Right. >> that that might negatively affect the experience of the of the person. >> Perfectly. But it also gives a platform **[00:26:00]** for competitors >> Yes, I've seen that. >> to advertise to your own >> competitor like right there, the local competitor the ads on the TV and you're like, "Come on, guys." >> Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, it's like here's a quick like you're you're you're getting service done and you're paying $400 a tire and then you get a an ad on TV saying buy two tires, get two tires free and you're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop the work. I could get this done for half off somewhere else." And you're like, "Hey, what's going on here?" And now that creates doubt and you're or reinforces the message that the dealership is spending is charging you multiple amount of what the service actually costs or let's say that you're in the market for you mentioned Honda you the the brands you mentioned. So let's say you're in the market for a Honda Accord and you're you're waiting for them to come back to you on finance or they say, "Hey, sit in the lounge, have a coffee, you know, whatever the situation is there." And then on TV is another Honda store in the same area advertising on the TV for $100 less per month. Now, you may not qualify for that, but you don't know that. You're just like, "Wait a second. I just saw this ad on TV." And now you got a you got a argument with yourself, and it may delay the sales process even further. So, lots of different things. So, when having commercial-free, family-friendly content like we provide, uh goes ahead and creates like a in-store network for a TV, which allows them to promote their own products and services to customers in the waiting area. >> Yeah, that's that makes sense, and it does work. I recently found myself at a Tesla um collision center, like right? And uh we took a vehicle there, and within it they had this big TV. But, of course, the content was Tesla content. So, there was a video of full self-driving. It was just a looped video, very long looped video of cars driving themselves, and like getting out of accidents, like doing things that you don't know even if you've heard of FSD, like, "Oh, okay. I didn't know that it would end the stoplight, go back to let the bus make the big turn." And then things **[00:28:00]** like that. And it will go to the side of the road when an ambulance is coming. Like, stuff like that it was playing. And so, you're there, you're drinking your coffee, you're waiting, you see that, and you're like, "Oh, okay. Then maybe [snorts] maybe it's a good idea. Like, I didn't know they progressed as much with the thing." And it's just because the digital signage had their own brand and their own thing running there. >> imagine if you're in a Tesla collision center or in their in their waiting area and you saw a Honda commercial. Or let's comparable, you saw a Rivian commercial. Now, what's the logic in that? But yet, franchise car dealerships do that all day, every day. About 90% of car dealerships actually have regular live TV playing in their lounge as opposed to buying like from digital dealership system, our product is just $99 a month. So, it like it's it's a drop in the bucket for them to go ahead and pay $99 a month, but yet they don't do it just because it's logic is not a big part of that industry. And then so, to kind of close the loop, so digital dealership system runs on Zony, which is z o n e y, and that but that product, Zony, is available for any market. So, if you have a retail store or you have a restaurant, if you have a bar, or you have some sort of a an establishment that you want to communicate like a silent salesperson or silent educator to your customers, then that's what digital signage can be for. Now, if you're a big franchise like Dunkin' Donuts, you could go ahead and use Zony as your platform, and then you could target out you could group stores together and target it out or connect it with your point of sale system. So, any change made can go to the region or to select stores. Like you mentioned, one store had a Spanish. So, like in Miami or in in in San Antonio, like different parts of the country may have be multilingual. So, you have your branding for a corporate, and then you have your branding regionally where you might have multiple languages. Like in Canada, you **[00:30:00]** might have partial French, right? And then in in California, you might you might Southern California, you might have more uh Spanish than you have. It's so like again, like different types of language barriers. So, you have the the ability to control that from a single platform remotely, and then pair them together. And if you are corporate and you wanted to have or if you built a business on top of it, right? So, you like we're talking about like Dunkin' Donuts is one customer, but imagine if you created Armando digital signage company, right? And now you sell digital signage services to local businesses, and then they could log in and make changes on their own. Well, when they sign in, it's your platform, not Zony, because we could white label that. So, lots of different options available and and we tried to create a program that was extremely easy to use and customizable. So, [snorts] that's kind of that's the that's kind of a quick overview of those two companies that are are part of our portfolio. >> Well, and and it it looks like the way you built it through the years was based on experience. You were using them, you were providing service for them, you saw something that were using some of that sort of worked but it was getting complex and like we were talking before the show started like sometimes you just need to rebuild a tool that you currently use and that might not serve as the exact needs that that that you have. >> Right. >> And then eventually you even find out that other people need that exact same thing that you built. >> Exactly. Exactly. And and and that's where we've we've built a lot of different products based on that internally and then push them out to the market at large and even if they don't make any money long-term, we still have the we still have that need internally and then when we push it out to the market at large, it's a diff- it's a different audience so we have to open it up for everybody's criteria versus just our own but then we also have programs that we developed that were our only internally like our onboarding tool is **[00:32:00]** only for our customers to make onboarding easier for our services. So, but then we have products that are available for anybody to use and we kind of use that freemium model because we're not trying to squeeze as much juice out of every user as possible. We just want to increase our user base without that variable there. >> That's great. And I think for people who are building tools, especially nowadays that anyone can build something um as long as you have a very good idea but I think more importantly as long as you have a pain point that needs a solution >> Mhm. >> and that more people have and that you have a way to reach that audience, right? Because otherwise, you can build as many tools as you want, nobody will use them because nobody will know about them. >> Exactly. Exactly. And that's always a difficult part for any tool. I I always go to a reference like let's say you're the best chef in the world >> Mhm. >> and you open up a restaurant and nobody shows up. You're still the best chef in the world but nobody shows up because they don't know about it or because you know, your location is bad or whatever the case is. So, just you may be the best at something or offer the best service, but shows up, it doesn't it doesn't pay the bills. >> Yes. Yes. >> Exactly. >> Well, as as we were talking about the digital signage, um there's there's so many usage for us because we're talking about like the the corporate the enterprise uh space maybe small business franchises, but but also even at home. Like right now, I'm I'm setting up a small we I built one many years ago, but now I can build much more dynamic one >> Sure. >> that holds everything for your daily life, right? You have it in the garage or in the kitchen and it's a screen and it has your calendars, but it has like the school calendars, it has the work events and like it shows you everything a digest of what you need to do that day or what you need to think about and just during the day, it'll prompt you like like hey, remember to take the teddy bear to school for whatever thing the firefighters, right? >> Yeah. >> And um but having it linked to all your other services and things, it can it can **[00:34:00]** just give you that that information. And so, it becomes a way for you to stay on top of things that either you're keeping by hand and you might forget or you or your wife has it on iCal and you have it on Google Calendar and they're not synced and like it gets lost or the teacher sent an email like all this has happened, >> Right. Right. >> right? We can build tools and I I've always been able to build tools because I'm a software engineer, but >> Okay. >> spending the time to build that tool versus work, right? Sometimes it's like well, you you don't do it. But with how AI has evolved to today and how these coding tools help us, you can hobby project out a tool that you've always wanted that might be just for personal purposes, but you can pull it out in a day or even have agents working at night and then just test it and things like that. And so, while yes, you might not make the the world's most popular software immediately just because LLMs allow you to you can like really produce these amazing things really quickly and and realize whatever you had dreamed of. >> Indeed, you could it's very easy to do to make a software program for one. >> Mhm. >> Uh but when your use case is hundreds or thousands or potentially millions of people, the unknown user, their requirements are going to be much broader. And when we're creating a program that was internal, we have a specific, this is what we want it to do because it's for us. But when we have a program that we've created for that's that we have to adjust for many use cases and those edge cases where someone says, "Well, can it do this and can it do that?" Then it gets a little bit more complicated. And I think the big thing in AI right now is being a prompt master or a prompt engineer. And then being able to understand the customer experience. I have a friend who's a CTO of a of a of a very large company and we are talking about the structure and they're letting **[00:36:00]** go a lot of their programmers uh because they their AI is able to do a lot more work in a shorter amount of time. And what he and I have spoken about over time is the project manager role is really the ideal role for these because you don't have to know code. The project manager role, let's say 10 years ago, I was a technical recruiter before. And the project manager is the the person in the structure that is between the business idea and the developer. Well, now if that person understands the business use case and they could prompt and they could do the customer experience and and do the Q&A themselves, then you really need of that all you need is that project manager to go ahead and answer for the business case because they could go if they could do the Q&A, they could go ahead and prompt. They're they're the masters of both worlds, right? The business world and the development world. So, if you exclude the development world cuz you don't need to know where to put a dash versus a colon anymore or a backslash versus a frontslash anymore and the agents have gotten so good where they're checking their own work. They're taking screenshots of their own work. So, it's not just coding, but they're doing some Q&A on their own. And so, now you just have someone, okay, does this meet the business case and they're becoming prompt masters versus being an actual coder. And I think that's where the the future is is really understanding how to prompt for the business use case and then enhancing it based on the consumer case where what is that person's usage? Are we is it easy enough for someone to intuitively understand because code and these AI tools, they're really not they're good at creating content, but they're not really good at at design. Um a lot of their designs look very similar unless you interject your own type of ideas into it. If you just tell it to design something, it's you can tell it **[00:38:00]** to design 20 different products and then you call those products up on a website and you get next to each other and they all look like they were done by the same person cuz there's no uniqueness from one to the other. So, that's where that product engineer that project manager has a significant role in the future and not so much of the development side. >> Yeah, I think the project manager role I've I've pushed it for many years. I think a good project manager that actually helps the team and and keeps everyone and is on top of everyone and and pushes things forward is excellent, especially when we're dealing with technical developers. Like there's a difference between a developer and software engineer, of course. And then but but unfortunately in many companies, I've seen I've had the experience of of consulting with and things like that where they had developers that would just develop. Like literally, they would just develop. And and I think those are the people that could be in trouble because the AI will develop much better than them cuz they're just developing. >> And faster. Well, way faster. >> [laughter] >> And with with no mistakes and things like that. Now, where do the mistakes come in? Well, if somebody missed explaining the security implications, the privacy implications, the UI part, right? And so yeah, I think a project manager or even a developer or a software engineer that sort of merge into a project management role, then it's a different it's just a different skill set that you still use. If you have a software engineering background, you have a way to think about and abstract and and organize things and that's very useful, especially like when when building with these tools cuz you can you know what things to look out for. But if if you if you were just literally just like oh yes, coding like like a little like um assembly line, then then yeah, I mean that's it's done and with the same thing has happened with the assembly line. And then it became robotics to took over that. So yeah, I tend to agree. I think **[00:40:00]** just the there's going to be a shift where it's already there, but the shift be from what these roles are and what these roles mean and I don't think that the engineering role goes away necessarily, but it just needs to transform into a higher level communication um >> Yeah. heavy role where before a lot of people would would just not be like I I don't want to generalize of course but but I've had the experience of clients talking to me and being like hey but how do you understand business and code and like how do you merge those worlds together typically when I talk with a developer it's like I don't understand what they're saying and it's not general you can't generalize but it does happen a lot and so I think a lot of people will will sort of need to and finally enough get into relationships more like start human to human interaction [laughter] >> Oh no. >> So >> Yeah I mean I've been in rooms before with a bunch of coders and it's basically lights off headphones on and they're all coding and and if you want to have a criteria like just a thought of like if you go back to that the Facebook movie the original one I guess they came out with another another one recently but the Facebook movie that way they talked about they had all the coding and they they they went ahead and did they they were getting they get locked in and they put on the headphones they're just sitting there coding and they're just dialed in and focused and they have competitions and things like that that's kind of passe right now because you as long as you can verbalize something you don't even have to know how to type tell your story and now what I do is I actually have a conversation with with the AI to help hone in the prompt more and then it helps me generate the proper prompt and then I put that into the coding tool because I found that when you put them against each other you get a little bit better results and then it checks each other's work a little bit more so that way when you're putting out something it's exactly what you originally wanted to because even **[00:42:00]** when you take a take a prompt from let's say chat GPT or some some chat dialogue program and then you put it into a coding program the coding program is just is it comes back sometimes and it's incomplete. Uh and you might have to do another round, but you give the feedback from one to the other one. So I leave them independent as opposed to keeping everything all in one and I I've I found that gets better results when you actually uh push it out to the network and for people to see. You're you're pushing out it's more of a complete project that way. >> Yes. Yes. Yeah, but putting them against each other is is is good and then also like even within the same models, just having the structure of knowing what is good up front and being able to guide it so that it doesn't take shortcuts and things like that, right? There's There's There's this person called Uncle Bob who wrote Clean Code, like the book on Clean Code many years ago. And and I was listening uh to him speak a couple months ago and uh he was saying that now he trusts the the LLMs for for his code. Like he he's gotten to a point where where he can actually trust the code that they're generating. And he explained why because the way he did it was instead of just telling it to build things or to implement things, he put in all the principles from his books and and had had his hardness pick up on that. Such that when it's building, then it goes through and checks, makes sure that the functions are smaller and make sure that uh there's no like crazy mutations when something X or Y variable changes, things like that. And so things that were theoretically good, but that most people didn't do because it took a lot of time and effort and things like that, he was saying now it's feasible. You could just have it overnight do tests **[00:44:00]** that would would have taken weeks and it's very exhaustive, but he can trust the output cuz cuz just put in the rules in place such that um the output is is always good. And then and then you just need the other side, which is like what you said, like having uh like an admin uh or or or an HR person like go and use a tool and tell you, "Hey, this makes no sense at all. >> Right. >> What is this?" And then get their feedback and then um put them into the process so that that it's a tool that they they will actually understand. >> Yeah, it's definitely always important before going live with anything to develop on a secondary or sub site. And then as you make revisions, make sure that you're not overwhelming the user, that it is intuitive. Or if it's not totally intuitive, that you have some sort of tool tips or guidance or things like that built into it. But again, if those things are important, then you have to prompt those things to be important and add it. Uh and and and the structure, the layout, the usability, or it's really good at coding, but it's not really good at the other things until you're prompted to do so. So and and sometimes during it, some people call it waves, some people call it versions. You know, it's like, "Hey, let's go ahead and do you know, do group everything together to have it do it once or do you break it down into individual components?" Because the more that it does it once, the the more likely it is to to be incomplete. And so the program says, "Hey, I'm done." But you're like, "Yeah, it's not done yet." And then you keep on having to reverse revise it. So the opportunity is to go ahead and do it in smaller waves. Uh so break it up. And when you break it up, you have definite definitive measurables within that. You make sure it it takes a little bit longer, but you the product winds up being better in the long term. >> Yeah, I think you touched on two things that are uh super important. One, con- context drift, right? So you're like, "Oh, by the way, let's do this other thing, too." And then it goes down the rabbit hole and then forgets part of what you **[00:46:00]** we doing. And then it's like, "Yeah, we're done." And then it you use so much of your context window that it just it literally forgets. And uh there's no recovering it. And if you're not keeping track, I personally like using GitHub issues. So, I have it create GitHub issues for like every little thing that we're building. >> Okay. >> Um during build uh not only like a support issues because it's just a third-party tool that it can reference. And so then it can go through milestones and it could compare and and add notes to each of them and And so it won't forget cuz it's not theirs to forget. >> Right. If it's not a third-party reference. >> Yes, exactly. It's uh And so those little types of things that the last people start doing them, they will help create better tools. And and the harnesses will will obviously get get better at this and they have been getting better, but I mean, I don't know if you've tried this, but Claude, if you use Claude at all, they added mods. Have you heard about mods? >> Uh I'm not familiar with the term mods. >> Okay, so >> Like moderators? >> No, it's like modifications. So, uh back in the I I I always remember like back in the day when you when we had IRC before like ICQ. Yeah, IRC. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So, you could modify. You could modify the application, make it look you want it, have animations stuff. But, it's sort of like that. So, >> Okay. >> on on Claude um code, you can create these mods which are basically like a plugin to the Claude code >> Okay. >> that it can do things. And so, if you have a very specific process that you always want it to compare the Y to X or Y thing. Or you always want to follow the like the Uncle Bob's tips. Like I actually created one for for for that. Um it will as you're using it above your little chat thing, it will it can it can put up uh little banners, it can tell you like I have one where where you're getting higher than 150,000 tokens, it'll boom give you a little warning and say, "Hey, you're above this. Uh you can keep going, but I suggest like wrap it up and do a new conversation so your contact is clean and and it even like **[00:48:00]** generates a new one. I have one that analyzes all the mutations and make sure that the functions are all clean and it just does it continuously as you're working. So you can add these sort of mini plugins and it can have a little sidebar and things and and so if you have a very specific process that you typically have to remind it in each new repository to do with mods sort of standardize it and it's just part of the the harness now >> Okay. >> that you use. So it's really new. It came out like a week or something but it's yeah it's it's brilliant. I thought it was a it was a great way >> They always find new ways to use more credits. >> Yeah well well you know what's funny? That doesn't actually use more more tokens because I mean depending on what you want to do because it it can but you could link it to another model like Jev to do some decision trees and stuff like that if you wanted to. Like it's just it's just a JavaScript type type script interface to create these and so you can have things that run deterministically. They don't have to run through the LLM. >> Okay. >> And then it can read them and stuff like that. So >> Interesting. >> It's at I find it being very nice that we can do all this but like you you said it's very important to consider like sometimes it's going to forget stuff >> Right. >> if you go down a rabbit hole and then what I've found, I don't know if if this is your opinion as well, when you are building something that's a very big, you get used to this thing being so fast to build that even wait I don't know it's a psychological thing but it's like when it says like oh sorry please now you go in and and like test this thing. You're like no cuz that's going to be slow and you want it to just keep going and I think a lot of people just ask it to keep going and that's where things fall through the cracks. >> Right. Yeah, you have to go through and test it at every every turn. So Uh, one of the programs I'm working on now is a document management tool and it goes through revisions and the last time I did coding it was like 40 minutes check **[00:50:00]** in and then based on the a re-prompt it was another 45 minutes and another hour and then then that version was done and like did everything that we finally asked it to do after three passes and then then I I log into the program and go through the process and then give more feedback or say, "Okay, it's good. Now Now let's go work on the next feature." So, it's like even though it it it it should be done, it sometimes takes multiple passes to go ahead and get that that feature completed and then you have to test it because even though it says it's done and it takes screenshots and and checks off all the stuff, it's not it's not a human at the end of the day. And regardless of whatever whatever they want us to believe, uh, we still have humans that are using the system and and they're the ones who make the decision on whether to use our system or someone else's or to pay for our system or someone else's. So, at the they have to go ahead and like the actual experience and I think that's the difference. Um, their computer can program, it could design to a limited extent, but and it it and it could be functional, but is it something somebody wants to use? And that goes back to our even goes back to our other discussion about when you think about these franchises that compete against each other, why would you buy from one dealership versus another that's 15 minutes away? It's because the experience inside. Uh, let's say that or when you go into one McDonald's versus another, is it easier to get to because the traffic? Is it cleaner than the other one somehow or is it somehow less busy or more busy or is it are the people there somehow nicer or not nicer? Like all these factors that are not in the code, right? They're they're make it what what makes that a unique experience is really the differentiating factor between potentially success and failure of an application or a business. >> Amazing. Yes, that is so true. Now, speaking of **[00:52:00]** as we close out this conversation, if a listener is is hearing this and they're like, "Hey, I I have a business. I've heard about this signage stuff and I don't understand if it's like a fit for me. Does it make sense? Am I just in an industry that just doesn't apply?" What would you recommend to a business owner or or maybe they own a corporation and and they're they're just curious. How does it work? What's the first step into the analyzing whether whether something like this makes sense for them? >> Well, we're speaking about things like Zونی and digital signs and things like that. You got to think how are you communicating in 2026 to your customers as they walk in your store, as they walk in your establishment. If you're still using trifold printed pamphlets or you're using 8 1/2 by 11 sheets of paper on the wall or you're using some sort of old way of doing things, you know, maybe it's time to upgrade. And digital signs are relatively inexpensive to go ahead and manage and maintain. A couple bucks a month goes ahead and gets you access. So, we're not talking a significant amount of money and you're not talking about a big technology lift for that. So, it's really finding a provider. Of course, we'd love to be that provider at Zونی, but you know, you can load software into your directly into most TV screens. You could have a media player, which is a separate like brain box if you will, like a Linux or a Windows box or a Raspberry Pi. You could just even if you start off with something basic and you took a slide show and connected it to a USB stick and disconnected that, that would be something better than that 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper. So, maybe there's a stepping stone. The difference between a USB stick is that whenever you want to change it, you have to take it out and put it back in. And then, you're also most most TVs these days will play that slideshow from a USB. It just doesn't look as **[00:54:00]** professional, but it's also very inexpensive. So, there's a there's a trade-off there as well. When somebody's coming into your store, if you're walking into a Gucci store or a high-end store, do you want to watch a slideshow or do you want to watch a polished presentation? So, it depends on the establishment and how much content you have. If you're just doing, let's say a static menu board, and it's just a picture of your menu and your pricing, then then you could definitely do that on your own with a USB stick. But, at the same time, if you wanted to have animations or you wanted to have pictures of your food or you wanted to have multiple things happening on the screen at a different time, then then it that's a level up. So, depending there's an entry-level, for sure, which would be a USB, and then software, and then what can you do with that software? Create different zones, have pictures of food, have animations, have videos, and being able to update it remotely. And and that has an advantage, especially if if if you have multiple locations or multiple TVs in a place. Imagine getting up on a ladder to change 10 TVs cuz you don't want to spend a monthly fee, and you got to go ahead and update 10 media players or 10 little HDMI sticks to go ahead and do that and plug it in and make sure they all work. It's just not not not time, you know, time versus money is is a big factor in life these days. >> I like that. I like the stepping stone approach. And and then a lot of people businesses already have TVs, right? They already have a TVs for something. >> For something. >> And and then some of them use live TV. Well, maybe they jump to the USB thing or some of them have the USB thing and they're like, "Oh, maybe I don't want to go on the ladder. I want to do the next thing, right?" >> Right. Right. And I want to be able to add more value. So, remember for could be images and videos, but you only display one thing at a time and it goes between each one one at a time. And now, if you wanted to have multiple things on your screen at the same time and maybe remotely update that from your desk or from your home, or you don't have to actually physically go to the store, or maybe you're an owner of a retail store, but you don't actually go to the store and you have men you want to oversee everything there. You have different specials. Maybe you're more of a **[00:56:00]** designer type person and you want to create different layouts and things like that of new fits for your retail store, or you have a special or a QR code, you know, to go ahead and and get gain traction to your website or for people to order online. You know, these are all things you could do with digital signs. It's a little bit more challenging like than on a USB stick. >> Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking of of like let's say you're the owner and suddenly the Hawks just won the game. I don't know. I don't need I don't follow sports, but like they and you're like, oh, and you could just like go in and change something and then suddenly your screens have like a two-for-one special for all the fans like in real time. >> Yeah. >> And and people would love that. So, like >> You could do updates from your mobile phone. You could take pictures of people in your restaurant and put it directly up on the screen while they're there. You know, you could do lots of different things and and create and and update content live right there from from your desk or from your office or from your phone. So, it could be as engaging as you want to go ahead and get people to again, how do you create a great in-store experience regardless of what >> business it is. And I think digital signs are the best way to enhance that in 2026. >> Amazing. Thank you, Todd. This has been super insightful. I learned a lot both about signage and the automotive dealership industry, which is super interesting. Thanks a lot for coming and sharing your knowledge with us. >> Oh, I appreciate the time today, Armando. >> And for our listeners, if you haven't like to subscribe, please do so because that way you'll be be first to know whenever we launch a new episode like this amazing one with Todd Catcher. So, we'll see everyone in the next one. Thanks.