Email Marketing Hero Image and AI Personalization for Small Business

**[00:00:00]** Hello everyone, my name is Armando Perez-Carreno and welcome to the Web Talk Show. Today we're here with R.J. Talyor from Backstroke. How are you RJ? Doing great today. Thanks Armando. I am very happy about what we're going to discuss today because it's a topic that I've personally had interest in but at the same time had reservations with. And so I believe well let's not keep it a mystery but we might talk a little bit about email. So, can you tell people about Backstroke, how you got started in this, and what led you to actually build what you're doing right now? Sure. Sure. So, Backstroke is a generative messaging platform that predicts what people are going to open, click, and purchase on for we we work directly with e-commerce brands. So, brands that you buy stuff um online uh from. And what the uh platform does is it instead of a uh a marketer having to go through all of the steps and hours to create an email, we predict what the marketer should do and then generate the variance of a message that each individual on a list might want to click on. And um yeah, that's that's kind of the the the the core of it. And I got started because in marketing, marketers always want to send the right content to the right subscriber. That's kind of the hallmark or the the holy grail of email or of of marketing in general. And we've always talked about wanting to do it. I've been in the industry for 24 years. And uh I got my start at Exact Target that got purchased by Salesforce. I led the email and the mobile teams at Salesforce Marketing Cloud before starting another company that um I sold to Shuttertock um about four years ago, five years ago now. And um across all of those experiences, we've been talking about how do we personalize content? How do we actually give Armando what he wants and **[00:02:00]** RJ what he wants? Well, I might have to actually create two different email campaigns. And let's say you've got a thousand or 5,000 or a million or 5 million people on a list. That's a lot of different variations. And now with all this AI capability, you can do it. And so it's been kind of fun to um always want this um capability. And now that it's here, we get to work within it and figure out how to make it work for our customers. And that's what we do every day at Backstroke. Wow. I Well, obviously the first thing that comes to mind when talking about email and personalizing is like, well, you can use merge tags to change the name. And that's about the gist of what most people get to. They're like, well, we included their name and maybe their industry, and that's what they call personalized. That's that's like the not even the tip the iceberg, right? Yeah. I mean really every element of uh of an email can be personalized in a really really direct way. And so um some of the most common ways are like the merge tag personalization like you're saying or um what's become um pretty popular is um send time optimization meaning that maybe I check my email first thing in the morning and then mid-afternoon. So those would be the best windows to reach me whereas other people maybe check their email in the evening. Um so you know um send time optimization but what Backstroke specializes in is the personalization of the actual creative within the email. So a good example is 46% of clicks come from the what's known as the hero image which is the first 400 to 600 pixels. Think about when you're scrolling through an email and you get one you typically click on that hero. Mhm. Um, so what's in that hero is either going to draw you into the experience or say, you know, I'm not really interested. So, a good example is like maybe I'll get an email and they're advertising women's dresses. Well, I don't buy women's dresses, so I'm not really interested in that email, but it's **[00:04:00]** from a brand that sells both men and women's clothes, like uh J Crew or something. Why am I not getting men's clothes targeted to me? Um whereas my wife might get an email that is showing women's dresses but also men's clothes because women tend to buy for their husbands more often than men buy for their wives, right? So um like that's a good example of like um some personalization. Um and then you go further into it like I live in Indianapolis, Indiana. I wear glasses. I'm a size large or extra large shirt. Um, so, um, show me content that is predicted to perform as well as in stock. Um, and then like I might like a green shirt, you like plaid shirts. Um, so maybe we wear the same size, Armano, but um, how do you actually show that content to you? There's all sorts of other things like I might be a discount buyer. I might be a a person who likes to buy three at a time. I might like to see myself or see an image of um that uh product out um um in the wild like maybe going for a hike versus behind a computer. All of these things actually are very predictable um based on age, income, what you do, previous purchase patterns etc. And now you can create the content that is um really speaking to the individual um at at scale and that delivers results. We see between 15 and 40 almost 100% in some cases percent um improvement in revenue coming from emails that are highly personalized and um it's it's truly like it's it's pretty exciting and awesome. I could tell you all the downsides and all the concerns here too, but just the the mere capability of it is pretty awesome. Um, and it's what what marketers have always dreamed of doing and how you can actually um do it down to like, you know, like what books are on the bookshelf behind you or um the the interests I'm I'm displaying by uh what's in the the image um the size of the font um percentage off versus **[00:06:00]** dollar like all these different creative dimensions didn't count. That is so interesting. There's a lot to unpack there. I'll start with the like just even the fact that you talked about the hero. I think by now most people have had a website for their company or a landing page, they've heard about the hero and how they have to optimize for the hero on their website, right? And above the fold, if you're from newspaper, like that's the whole thing. But email, how many people actually consider above the fold or the hero part of an email when they're sending it? How how many of us receive emails where like 500 pixels of the email is the logo with a black background and you still have to scroll to get to the first important Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's there's there it's like um uh a lot of a lot of e-commerce retailers um think a lot about that hero. Um but it's it's like um it it's it's almost that we think of it from a creative expression perspective, not a performance perspective. It's like, you know, the creative team, you know, they they um they've worked with the merchandisers on this green, right? like it's like a sage green and we really want to merchandise that color green. And so they're trying to figure out what how the color is best displayed or how like the hemline of the shirt or something is is best displayed. All very important things for buyers, but the performance of that is the real question. Like should the shirt be like centered or should I be like off to the side, you know, or like should it be a zoom in of the shirt? Um all of those different things. So um And it's, you know, the reason why people haven't thought about it is because we're too busy with the work or like, "Hey, we just need to get this email out. Like, I need I've got a billion things on my list today. I need to get this email out the door **[00:08:00]** to hit my revenue target for today or this week, however you're pacing it." And so, like, who's got time to figure out should it be a zoom in or a close crop or a far crop or whatever? But the machine does. And so we can say, hey, I want to merchandise this green shirt in the best way to target this group of individuals machine go and create generate variants of it that are predicted to perform. And so back to your question which is like who's even thought of it like with all this AI capability that's where we can go and explore avenues we haven't explored before because we now have time to ask the questions that we didn't yet you know didn't used to have the time to ask or thought well I'd like to do that maybe someday when I've got a free day on my calendar which is never um but now now you can so it's pretty I don't know I think it's I think it's exciting Um and then like also at the same time like overwhelming you know like it so we can go into it can be a lot but I agree I think the the whole AI thing is helping us do things at a scale that wasn't possible before and we see it in design for applications web design application design etc. There used to be this concept of you you're building it but then at the end there's always these little things that you missed like the little tiny things that would make it perfect in the UI or or in the experience and if you click and it moves a little bit or the the feedback haptic feedback or things like that like you wouldn't really get to those because you were busy with everything else. And now with the tools helping you along the way, then so all of a sudden you have space to actually work on all those little things that make an experience magical. And I think the same applies to what you're saying, which is well now you can not only make it look good, but it could be **[00:10:00]** highly tailored based on data that you already have, but you just didn't have the time to pull In a meaningful way. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it it's it's Yeah. if like coming in a little bit on the counter trend like it's um the the the trap here with AI um is that you can always go one more like there's always one more thing to perfect and you know sort of the promise or maybe the false promise of AI is that like you can you'll have time to do that and I think the trap that we see right now or that I'm seeing with a lot of marketers or even myself is like I'm not allowing for the um that optimized time to be used in a slow way. So what I mean is like we're like we you know we're like um work maxing and hypermaxing everything. I've got machines, I've got agents doing all this stuff while I I should go think through the things. And I think that that's um maybe I'm like that's a little bit of a trap, right? Because you can think I can always do more. I can always do more. Like at some point I think as business people or as humans we have to figure out like okay this is enough. And so like if I'm using backstroke to optimize my emails I'm going to use that time that I used to spend the 2 and 1 half hours to create an email on Thursday afternoons. I'm going to use that to think through how do I improve my brand? How do I slow down and like write some handwritten notes? To my customers to say thank you. call some customers and and or like join the customer um support line and like really get to know these people who are buying my products. Like that's the that is the actual promise of AI. It's not like maximizing the Uh oh yeah and I think that's that's a little bit of like the trap you fall in or something if if **[00:12:00]** you continue to just like hypermax everything. So, I wanted to say that because it's um like you as a as a marketer or as a brand, you got to figure out how much is enough for now. Uh in order to then really take advantage of that extra time and space to slow down, think, be human in the midst of all of this I really like the the handwritten note the getting in touch with people. But the web, internet connectivity has gotten us so much closer to people all over the world and very fast. But then you have this disconnect. They're not walking into your space, right? You're not interacting. I always liked the idea of being able to talk to the business owner right there in in the business, right? And so that sort of starts to go away. But now, as you're saying, if if you're gaining time from the digital part, how fun would it be to actually get in touch with people and talk to them and and I heard this funny thing the other day, yesterday, I believe, with on a podcast where where this lady was like, "Well, I'm on top of my DMs and I'm I'm talking to people and things like that." And a lot of people because I answer very fast, they're like, "Is this AI?" And she's like, "No, this is not AI. It's Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Isn't that funny? I I have um actually found um for uh I want to say all, but I've visited I 95% of our customers on site at their Um and it's a it's quite a bit of travel. Um, but that um that in-person touch, like showing up with a with some smoothies um or like lunch, ordering lunch and **[00:14:00]** just sitting there and training them shoulderto-shoulder or I always ask people like, you know, uh I'm I'm like the cheesy startup question guy like at the beginning of a call. I'm like, "What'd you do this weekend? Let's really like what do you like to do when you're not working? What do you do for fun?" and that type of stuff. I think that stuff is is actually the differentiator. So that's not a new thought, but like actually forcing the time to to do that cuz I think a lot of times in business we're we're in this like hypermaxing, how do I maximize the efficiency of everything? and and that's important too. But um visiting our customers on site, hearing about their fears in this AI world, um whether it be like a business fear like AI is going to mutate my brand or cause me to get fired or take my job. I I had a customer tell me the other day that um that she didn't like a certain part of our project our product because she's like, "I like doing that work. I enjoy that part of my job. And now the machine automated it. So that four hours that I had looked forward to is now being done by backstroke. And like in my backstroke mind like yes, awesome. I just gave you four hours back and I can count that towards our ROI. But she's thinking no no I like that part of my job. And so that's not something that you get when you have a 30 minute Zoom with somebody or through a chatbot experience. when you're reading a chatbot transcript or something. That's the stuff that comes from having gone to her office, sat down next to her. I know what town she's from. Um, and you know, I don't have like a crazy personal relationship with her, but I I I have a person I have a there's more than just like you bought my software and uh thanks for the check, you know, here's here's my training. I the the the human dimension, executing that human dimension **[00:16:00]** takes time, takes a flight, takes a rental car, takes a hotel night away from my family. Like that's an investment. And uh anyway, we're we're going kind of deep here on mono on on on I I I don't know if this is what you want to talk Yes. Well, because this is the what I think people like. It's the behind the scenes. It's like you see this business on especially an online business like it's AI related as well. So you're like behind the screen, right? So So I like to go into these things because we're looking at who is behind backstroke and what are your feelings and what you as a business owner care about for your clients. And many of us have that approach of of actually caring for our clients. But from the other side as consumers, as customers, we just see a facade. And if we hear nothing from the other side. Then then we don't we don't get to experience this and see like, wow, I mean, this this company has real people who actually care. For us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's I think that is actually the the uh that is how how we're going to win, you know, with all these agents able to spin up websites that look beautiful or um software that u performs well um and then kind of frictionless purchasing um without ever having to talk to a human. That personal component I I think is a differentiator. Um and you know with all the buzzwords out there everything kind of sounds the same and looks great. So, it's like, is this a company that's legit or not? So, I actually I named my company Backstroke because I grew up and I swam in high school. I swam in college. I swam this morning. Um, I swim for, you **[00:18:00]** know, for fitness and I swim for competition and um and if you know me, you know I'm a swimmer. Um, and uh, well, I I really like telling that story about the history of the company and why I named it Backstroke because it's so personal. Swimming's uh, you know, something I do for fun. I do it for um, exercise for stress relief. And, um, here's my hottest take of the whole podcast, which is I do not like people who tell me that they put headphones in while they swim. And um cuz the sloshing of the water around your head is like the best. It's like the one place in the world where you can escape all of the digital things, you know, like I've got my phone on the side of the the the pool and I'll check it, you know, after I swim, but uh you know, having the headphones in, I don't know, it feels like you can't really escape into the calm of it all. And I think, you know, backstroke, you know, nodding to swimming, um, uh, uh, where you can kind of get some calm and escape and really I come up with literally my best ideas. People say that they get their best ideas in the shower. Mine come from swimming, like you know, just that kind of flow state. Um, people talk about a runner's high. I think there's the same thing in swimming. You just get to the point where you don't even you're not even thinking anymore. you just are kind of losing yourself in in in the water. And uh anyway, I think that that's cool because I think um if we're going to succeed or be successful in this AI world, we're going to come in with creative ideas that are very human and um use all these AI tools to to win. So, um anyway, it's all connected for me in in my head and um I love to talk about swimming and um uh and I always ask our customers like what's um on our lead form if you actually fill out a lead on backstroke.com you um I it says what's your favorite place to swim and people **[00:20:00]** put some cool stuff in there like yeah they'll they'll like a particular lake like their grandparents lake house or like the Mediterranean beach that I was in on my honeymoon or what like it's always like a fun conversation starter um uh that's really personal to them and personal to me. It creates that connection that we all need as humans and this AI world. So I I think there's connecting like you're saying and I like the nod to swimming within the brand and that disconnection. I I didn't realize people use headphones in the water first of all. Yes. Yeah. You can get them now. There's like I mean I It's funny. People say the same Yeah. People say the same thing about running. Like I like to run with headphones because I I'm such a terrible runner. Um and I'm like I hate to listen to something myself pant but and they're like you shouldn't use headphones while you like. So I get it but I'm a purist on the Yeah, you could get these waterproof headphones that don't do it. I realized when I was a kid I went snorkeling. We went to this this activity with like Discovery or something when we went out to they sent us somewhere went with with some instructors. It was it was fun. But we were snorkeling and I remember for whatever reason it stuck with me on the water with the snorkel gear just just floating because you could be facing down, right? Just floating. But you can still breathe because you have the snorkel, right? And it was so And relaxing. It was this and I I expect that's what it feels like to go in those immersion type what what they they call yeah the Yeah. sensory deprivation. I've never done it but I but I expected something like that. So you're just And that's where like you're saying you can get good ideas cuz you're not swamped with all these distractions and things which there's a place for but you should have your spaces where you actually disconnect. **[00:22:00]** Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Although al although there is there is kind of the dark side to it, you know, like people are very afraid of swimming. Um and you know I think drowning is like one of the top five uh causes of death in the US still. Um so I don't know maybe there's a little dark side to to it. But um but it it elicits a reaction, right? An emotional response that is uh personal to me and uh you know is different than maybe a differently clever name. My previous business um was called Pattern 89 and um I thought it was a cool name. It was fun. Um and it was named that because there are 88 constellations in the sky and we used AI and machine learning to discover the 89th pattern within your universe of data. That's how we talked about it. But no one could ever remember was it pattern 87, pattern, pattern 89, you know, and so I was like, listen, this has got to be something really clear. Um and uh I actually swam Butterfly. Um that was my stroke, but was like it was crazy expensive. So back was is well still it's a it's a great name. I think I I when we talk about one of the things that's hard for businesses now, I don't know what type what what size of e-commerce brands you work with, but but the smaller mom and shop, mom and pop shop, or or just just solopreneur, husband and wife e-commerce that maybe they just have a Shopify that they put up or or WooCommerce or whatever. um they they like the idea of doing something like this and sending out these nice emails, but then you go into the Mailchimps of the world and all these different tools and even the templates go against what what we're talking about. Um and so getting to something like that, then they have to use another tool that has all the personalization, but then they have to have forms for people to personalize. And so it becomes this huge **[00:24:00]** infrastructure or software endeavor and they either never do it or they have to spend a lot of money to do it. So when you start talking about these things, I think they're amazing. And if there's a tool that can get them to both do the personalization and do the emails, right, and inter and connect to their system. And I think that's brilliant because the data is there. like you were saying, well, if they already bought five shirts, medium, right, for men, then I mean, just grab the data and now you know, and they can change it, but but at least you know their preferences and can start to tailor the messaging. But doing it by hand is just so hard that you just don't do it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I get that. Um, that is definitely a a a problem. And I was just making some notes because um I hear it all the time. Um it's a little bit of a go slow to go fast is is how I would recommend um that. So templating everything, setting up automations and um then the other thing is not being so precious about stuff and this is like from a startup uh like a founder of a business, right? Like and um uh with Backstroke we can get customers up and running um in around 2 to four hours. And if you're willing to invest that, then we're good to go. Um, but it is a little tricky because telling me to sit down for 2 to four hours and focus on one thing unless it's a Saturday morning or a like early early Sunday morning, I don't have 2 to four hours to give to anybody, you know, like that's that's a tough thing cuz I'm trying to do all the things and keep all the the plates spinning as a as a founder. So, I I totally understand it. If we can get a C, and this is why I do it in person, too. This is why I get a customer, I bring lunch. We're going to work through lunch. We're going to work on this, **[00:26:00]** get two to four hours, like get through it, then we're good. Now, the one thing I have trouble with um is the preciousness. And I that's kind of a insulting word, but um sometimes I find that um startup founders or found like mom and pop shops or whatever where the um the CEO is too involved in like every word um of an email or um like how close a crop is or um I don't punctuation or those types of things. And again, I'm this is like the pot calling the kettle black. It's the worst thing for me to say because I'm very very particular, but in some cases, in order to scale, you have to trust the machines or trust a person to run the machines to scale the business. And there is a trade-off. And that trade-off is I'm not going to be involved in every decision. And it's, you know, kind of scaling your business or trusting your people or trusting your processes 101, which is very hard to do. Um and I again takes one to no one. I understand that that's a challenge but um especially in this AI world um setting up your templates setting up what your brand configuration or rules are like what are your always and nevers and then kind of those parameters to work within and then letting the machine move from there. The the rub of course is that and entrepreneurs know this is like how do you scale yourself? Like I'm the most passionate about backstroke. I'm the one who knows what the brand should look and feel like, but how do I find and hire people or create systems that can scale beyond me? Um, it's the same challenge um with AI as it is with hiring your team. And um it's easier to put the blame on AI and say like that machine doesn't work um than to say that human is that human doesn't work. And it's easier to fire AI than it is to fire a human because of all the, you know, humanness in it. So **[00:28:00]** it's it's I think that that is the the challenge for us as entrepreneurs or us as um small small businesses. If our goal is to grow, if the goal is not to grow, then you know you can kind of keep your fingers in all the pots and um but if the goal is to grow then that is you know the challenge whether that's a human through human means uh by hiring or by uh applying AI but I don't know the answer on that one but um I know what it takes uh but it certainly doesn't feel good when you get an email in your inbox you're like wait approve this one you know and it's like well you don't you don't like it is it inaccurate? I'm like, no, it's accurate, but who approved it? Like, who wrote that subject line? Who decided to put feature the green shirt? I thought we were featuring plaid shirts. Well, well, now that brings up memories of uh of clients, you know, even even so with this it probably at scale, but I've I've had interactions where I've seen like CEOs like you're saying where they're very close to it. Close to it when they want. Right. But then they will say they will approve something but then forget they approved it and then the team sends it but they weren't really paying attention when they approved and they get it and they're like what is this or even more like if it's personalized maybe they get something and they're like what's this? Why am I getting and you're like no no no no no that's because that's your version and then they are getting the other one like I thought we were doing dresses this week like no no no that's the other and so it really depend also on the technical uh grasp of of who's making this decision. So yeah you're on point on that for sure. Well, it it ends up being a cultural question like from like do you does your is your culture one of um or is your culture one **[00:30:00]** of uh and you know have you set the appropriate goals and then you know set the appropriate goals created the appropriate standards and then find the right people and tools to then go and execute that or not. And you know, I've had some customers in in the past like they literally send they like set up a different list and they send the certain people on that list a certain version of it so that they don't get the thing don't get the the creative one or the test. I mean that's that's a culture problem from my perspective. It's like oh you don't trust the people or they don't understand the goals or they like or or something else. And again, I have my little pet peeves, so I I'm guilty on on all accounts here, but you know, um it it it can be uh tricky from a culture problem. And especially with AI, right? Like if our goal is to hyperpersonalize so that everyone's getting the content that they want to that they want are more likely to um um convert on, then then we need to understand that. And um a lot of times I talk to a customer and I'll say um what's more important more revenue or um more efficiency? And the customers will be like both. Like no no no you have to pick one. You know do you want your team to be more efficient or do you want to drive more revenue? And they're like yeah but both. um or uh the same um kind of question like is brand adherence the most important dimension or is it revenue and um what often happens is then the creative director pops up and says we have to adhere to to to the brand. uh if if you have a creative director or a head of marketing that's really creative focused and then the person who's accountable for the revenue number says revenue at all costs um and you know at all costs asterisk **[00:32:00]** right um but we end up with this debate of like who so who makes the call and we find that often um is a challenge at backstroke because sometimes the buyer of backstroke um especially in these businesses that they go from you know maybe they end up with like 50 people right so it's like a small business, but it's it's a scaling business. They might have somebody who's the the marketer or like an agency or the creative team that's doing all the creative and then they have the person who's ultimately accountable for the number. So, it's and then how do you make sure that the person who's accountable for the number doesn't bastardize the brand to achieve a short-term outcome, which is to hit my end of month goal because I want to get the bonus that was after. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, it's it's that's the tricky that the performance versus creativity debate and then um brand like how do you build a long-term brand or something that exists diff in a differentiated like way uh versus just you know slamming my audience with email promotion after promotion to promotion to just get them to buy something from But I think you're on the right track because if you look at what giants are doing like Meta, right, with with their advertising platform and the new version of it where what is it called? Andromeda or something like that. It's um it's completely hyperpersonalized. So now if you it it has been for years. We did Facebook advertising trading many years ago and it was already personalized back then, but it was sort of based on buckets of of like if you like this, you most likely like this other thing and and that sort of thing. But now the whole thing is that you create tons of creative variations in all sorts of different formats. And then the algorithm will detect based on the user what types of ads, formats, **[00:34:00]** visuals, wordings they've interacted with before and then show those. So by creating more varied creative that can align with what people resonate with. Then you reach the right people. Y which is sort of what we're talking about here. Yes. And and as a consumer I appreciate that. Like I don't want to see medication commercials for people over 60. Like that's completely irrelevant to my point in time, right? Which is and but that's what we see in the TV. Like that's the TV commercials that have been there forever, right? And uh but on on digital, you get that flexibility of being able to show me what I'm interested in. And when you do that, then I'm pleased because maybe I was interested in looking at 3D printing, right? Yeah, show me all the 3D printing stuff. Why not? Like, I won't be bugged by the right email or by getting the right ad served because it's something that I do want. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's um Yeah. That that is the overall challenge. You know, the other thing that we we haven't really talked about is like um a lot of marketers go back and forth between product driven and promotional driven stuff and telling story or howto and like your 3D printing stuff. It's it's you know like if I sent you uh promotions for more and more my we have the 3D printer. What do you call that? Spools like the the The filaments. Yeah. So, like if if it's just like filament, filament, filament, like you might be like, "Okay, well, next time I'm ready to buy a filament, I'll I'll open your email." But if instead you tell stories like, "Hey, this is this amazing thing that I built. Here's some new templates that you might want to use or like um here's a human interest story about um 3D printing **[00:36:00]** these things for victims of a flood or something like that." Like, that's the stuff that keeps me intrigued and interested. And I think that the dur the the durable brands um that I'm interested in are the ones who are investing both in the content side of their business as well as promotions. And I can literally name the brands of emails that I look at their emails because they're talking about fishing or like hiking or um being outside and then um but and the and the models who are doing those activities I'm interested in are wearing the clothes but it's not a direct sale. And you know I think a lot of times we as a smaller and mid-size business we're like I don't have time for that. I don't have time to like go and invest in a photo shoot and hire some people to walk around in the woods and take pictures of them. But actually, that's the stuff that keeps me coming back to their emails. So, when I am ready to buy a new set of X or Y or Z, I'm going to those brands because I'm still engaged in their emails and those are the ones in my inbox versus just promotions, which I might just go to Amazon and um buy the cheapest thing that I could find. So, um yeah, it's my gosh, now I'm like all overwhelmed for the for the I think it's it's a kind of balance. I like that. So I'm I'm very fond of uh edu ed enter edutainment, right? So it's like you're you're showing stuff to show people about some something they learn something new, but at the same time they they get entertained, right? Some people like, "No, no, you do education or you do entertainment." Well, whatever you want. But I I like whatever I'm watching, I want it to be entertaining regardless. It's just educational, right? But it doesn't have to make me laugh, but but it has to be well made, Not production value, but just like you you took time to make it appeal to the viewer. And so I really like the example you gave of the 3D printing for example. So there's a lot of things we don't know because we're not professionals in 3D printing. We just like it. It's a hobby thing. And so maybe you print with PLA and that's all you know cuz that's what people talk about in the YouTube videos. But then all **[00:38:00]** of a sudden comes uh some other PETG or whatever type of material that you don't know what it's for. Somebody's mentioned it. But if the email comes in with a video and like look at the difference between um resistance and how much like what type of things you're building do they need to hold things or will they break? So then use this material versus this material. This is when you should use this and so that keep me opening the email because now I'm learning, oh maybe I need to buy some of that filament, right? or or just or just know when to use each one instead of just always blasting me with the promotions, which like you said, I keep some of them not unsubscribed yet just because I know they send good sales, but I'm not reading them. I'm just like whenever I know I want something, I'll go back to the archive, and look at them. Whereas, if they were sending good content, I might take a glance at it every day. And and that will build a brand much Yeah. Yeah. It's Yeah. And then that's the stuff. So we're back to it. Like that's what we should be doing with the time saved. By automating the manual work that we're so busy doing, you know, and like that's like that's the trap cuz you think um now I've automated all these things. I'm I've marketing I've maxed out all of my marketing with all this AI. Now I need to go max out something else. No, I'm going to slow down and think about the story. How do I engage in a human way that's interesting to somebody who's passionate about the thing that I'm selling or the experience that I'm promising? And uh it's so attractive to go and bang out something else on your to-do list instead of stopping thinking creating I don't know you saw that the world would be better overall not just in marketing land **[00:40:00]** there was I don't know if it was Garcia Marquez the author or one of one of the famous his Hispanic had said something about when he's done with a book, he never reads it again. Like once it's complete and he's done the whole thing, obviously they proofread and all that, but once it was complete, I don't remember who said it, but it was something about like once it's complete, it's done. Like because otherwise he'll always want to keep Oh, yeah. perfecting it. And I I don't remember who specifically said it, but it but it but I thought it it was a clever way to think about things because it's close to what you're saying. Like yes, use things make things better, but you get to a point where you're done and then that gives your mind freedom to do something else. And that something else might be better, whatever, but but it's something else. It's like a muscle. You have to let it rest and then continue. Yeah, I'm looking at this actually. So, fun fact, Armano, I have an u I have a masters in English, so I'm a big reader. So, anytime that we're talking about marketing and we end up um diverging to Gabriel Garcia or whatever, you know, like to any uh to author, I'm I'm curious. I'm actually really interested in that quote. Um I can't find it, but I'll I'll pull it up here maybe Yes. Yeah. I that's good and and it was it was I remember when when we we because we we heard about this and this stuck with me but it this was probably in high school uh when we were reading solad which is the uh one of those master works but uh which by the way you know you're you're into literature but people if people haven't read tangad that type of book you read once and it's one thing you read it again it's a completely other book you read it again a Few **[00:42:00]** years later, it's something completely different. Which is very interesting how our mind makes to things even the same exact literature further along in your life with more life experience. Um just it it just reads completely different and I don't know how that happens but it's very interesting. Yeah, that's good. That's good. I mean it's it's the humanness of it all, right? So, uh, in the appropriate context. So, yeah, that's good. Look at taking in all sorts of good stuff here. What is the connection? So, talking about like tool like Backstroke. F. First question that comes up because we we a lot of times help clients interconnect their tooling and like get things together so they don't have all these broken up little systems, right? And so a tool like Backstroke, does that then connect directly with their e-commerce software to pull that data? Does it live in their e-commerce software? Is it like you get the data, then you transform, and then you make it work? Like how does that work? Because I I like some systems where um there's these tools that work within your system, but then they affect your system, but then there's other tools that are sort of off the system, but then pull the necessary data, and then they just work on their own like magic, and they never touch your system. How do how does this one work in that terms and why did you choose that approach? Yeah, so we have a one-click integration to Shopify and then also into Claio or whatever ESP you're going to use. And we built it that way because of exactly what you're describing. Once you create something that requires the IT team to install a cookie or some sort of connector or some sort of custom things, you've created an amazing amount of friction that um is incremental to the friction of adopting an AI thing. **[00:44:00]** And um the change that we're hoping to pursue with our customers is the change from a um highly manual approach to an AI And so in order to not like uh to to to not pull that way down um we uh approached it from a just a one-click integration and um that's been successful for uh for us so far. Now customers are asking us to integrate with other systems or to go deeper in the integration that would require additional steps. Uh but for the uh for the initial um just get value out of backstroke we we approached it in that way and we wanted to target um small to mid-size businesses um who are fast movers who are hungry who are innovative who are really challenger brands who want to pursue the advantages that AI can offer um versus getting maybe going I worked for Salesforce for a while you know going after a customer that buys Salesforce is a larger company typically an enterprise business that has heav he heavier level of um like implementation slower um adoption of some of these newer technologies and that's not a a slight on those customers it's just a different customer archetype. So um uh we wanted to go after those fast movers because we knew that they were going to be the earlier to adopt AI and we've been right. So, um yeah, so it's it's uh it's been a good strategy to to get started with those um adopter those early adopter fast challenger brands that are using Shopify, Claio or a um a similar tool Does this also work with like single product or single skew type uh businesses where they maybe they have two of them, right? But it's like instead of having a big catalog, they have like this one main thing, but they but they sometimes they **[00:46:00]** need people to either repurchase it or or stay on etc. Or is it more focused on you have multiple products that you might want to sell cross-ell and that sort of thing? Yeah, we have some we have some so yes is the short answer. It can work across those single skew um brands or like if you have a catalog. The question really is how much of your revenue is coming from email marketing? Is it an important part of your marketing mix? Is it 20 or 30 is it accountable for 20 or 30% of your um revenue? If so, we're a great fit. Um if if it's um if you're selling mostly through social or mostly through Amazon or something like that, then probably not. And if you're sending three emails a week or more, four maybe um from a campaign perspective or those triggered messages are accountable for a lot of your revenue, we're a great fit because it's really about where you spending your energy and time and where's your revenue coming from. And if if it's coming from email, we're a great great fit for you. If it's not, then we're um we're going to be attacks, maybe even slow down your business and more a fun cool thing that maybe we should talk in a few years after your business grows enough to warrant email being uh something to to um optimize. What about a business that has maybe they have, I don't know, 2,000 members, but they have a 15,000 email subscriber list and they want to use email to get those people onto the actual membership. They just haven't explored it. like I'm I'm trying to figure out who's the type of person um aside from from the the common examples that come to mind as as we've had that discussion. I know of businesses that are in that boat where they're like, "We have this list and we sometimes send stuff and we're really not that good at it and we want to maximize it because these are people who actually subscribe and want to **[00:48:00]** learn more, but maybe we're not tailoring the message properly enough. we're just sending like generic things and what would be a good way to to take advantage of of uh the interest you know Amardo in that case I would not hire backstroke I would hire a and I would hire a contractor for three months to set up and run my email marketing program for that three months and figure out is this uh really important part of our business worth additional investment or not? And um if so, after that 3 months, you're like, "Hey, we've kind of done the blocking and tackling of getting a program up and running. We've validated that we can drive incremental revenue from sending more frequent emails, then call us." Um uh that's good. I I I I I just I mean, as much as I want the business, I think sometimes people jump to the AI thing because it's sexy and cool and fun, but you know, it's like, you know, the crawl, walk, run, or whatever cliche you want to use here. Like, if your email program is not running, get your email program running. Hire a contractor. I can recommend some for you. Um, and then once you're ready to um, uh, drive more revenue um, out of it, then that's a good reason to bring in Backstroke. Nice. Okay. I'm glad you said that. Yes. Because a lot of people see a tool and they're like, "Oh, whoa. Okay, that's what I need." And then it doesn't work, but it's not. It's just they weren't at the right place for that yet. Right. Okay. Excellent. So, what would you recommend to our listeners if they they are doing some email marketing, they're getting some revenue from it and they they they want to start to get better at it, they want to get more revenue out of it, more percentage um and uh they want to do it right. What are some recommendations you could give our listeners so that they **[00:50:00]** start doing it properly? Well, you know, I I'm um uh I if you don't have a well, I would say Claude subscription today, if you don't, I would um connect your Claude to your email program and I would ask Claude all the questions you might ask a consultant. Um uh you know, like um what's working, what's not working for us, how would I what what are three to five things that you could recommend to improve my program? because I think you can get some really tailored and personalized content um and best practices from there. Um and um that will be an easy and cheap way to improve any email program. Um that if you're willing to to to do that work, that's a um you know a fast and cheap and easy way to do it. and then go to a go to a then but then you know like I've been an email for literally 24 years so like then um talk to a consultant um after that but um you know it's it's it is like taken some stair steps there but I've been impressed with the way that um some of the advice and blogs and stuff within email marketing has been compiled and really Claude knows a lot um on that and it's an easy way to to you know do some best practices application. That's great advice. I I couldn't have said it better. I think people should listen to that like and this is not just extending to email like if you have other tools for your analytics or for other things. So let's start with email. Let's say you have a tool already. When R.J. is talking about a connector, a lot of these have ways to connect to cloud or cloud to connect to them via MCP or their API etc. Cloud cloud will guide you through it. So you connect to it and then it can read all the data. Doesn't have to imagine it and then it can tell you oh these things **[00:52:00]** you got conversions from these these were working. This ones were trash etc. And it'll get you very close or even let you know about little things like you're not even tracking UTM codes or whatever and then you'll be oh now I can do that. And I think that's amazing advice for for everyone who's listening. if if if you want to get into it and then hire a professional, talk to a professional and start start going up the hill like like you were saying. Excellent. Well, R.J., it's been a true talking with you today. Such great information that you gave our listeners. I had a blast. Thank you for coming on the show. And for all our listeners, if you haven't liked and subscribed to the show, please do so so that you are aware whenever we release new episodes like this one with R.J. And R.J., if they want to find more about Backstroke, about the stuff you're doing, where can they get more information? Sure. Yeah, you can check us out at just backstroke.com. We'd love to talk to you more about it or you can find me on LinkedIn and um we can set up some time. Excellent. This has been great. Thanks again, R.J. and uh we'll see everyone in the next one. Thank you.